A thread for approved studies and known facts

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Tōtōchtin
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A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by Tōtōchtin »

I have spent 100's of hours looking for info here. I love this place but there is a lot of crap to read to find gems. I just spent 3 hours here and brew sites looking for the correct amount of nutrients for yeast. You can read where I add b vit. or dap, or yeast hulls but never the damn amount. how many mg of what type of b vit. would help. I dislike fools who say read to your eyes bleed with no knowledge of how much you have been looking already. Do a search here on the amount of nutrients needed,you will fall into a trap its hard to recover from. Tried and true is ok but SBB rum and it says a b vit no type or amount.
University studies, known facts could go into one place. Members could vote on them and put them here or the wiki area. The group could fix this no need for mods busting their ass. Ok rant over...
Toto
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Tōtōchtin wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:53 pm SBB rum and it says a b vit no type or amount.
It actually says "Contents of 1x vitamin B complex capsule or 1x ground up Vit B tablet."
I dont know how many types/brands there are in the land that you live in, but here there are hundreds......any supermarket, chemist shop / Drug store, or health food shop has them by the jar full for sale. On average they contain what is considered a healthy dose for 1 Adult if one is taken daily.
If your that interested buy a jar of them, I'm sure that the amount contained within each capsule or tablet is written on the side of the jar.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by cob »

be water my friend
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by Bradster68 »

What recipe are u referring to? All the ones iv followed in the T&T iv had success with.IF......You follow them exactly. If you're making your own recipe these are great guidelines. AG, sugar washes and rum are all slightly different.
But in the end yeast health,nutrients, sugar Content, temp of fermentation and water chemistry. These are most important no matter what your fermenting. Again look in the T&T take notes and start experimenting if that's what you're into.
These are all things iv learned from reading successful recipes. Now I simply scale them up or down.🍻
I drink so much now,on the back of my license it's a list of organs I need.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by NZChris »

I've never known the 'correct' amount of B vitamins to use. It hasn't stopped me making a lot of very nice product. I use Vegemite because I always have some in the pantry.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by Rum Agol »

Toto the correct amount of nutrients needed will depend on what your making. Grains, fruit and molasses all contain variable amounts of minerals,vitamins and nitrogen so determining exactly how much extra to add is impossible for us hobbyist. Most of us will add a little b vitamin and/or dap if we think it appropriate. Reading through lots of posts to find the gems is frustrating for those who just want instant answers, but I find that process very informative. That said I think you're idea of an approved studies and known facts thread has merit.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by Stonecutter »

+1
So much is arbitrary and consensus.
Starting your own journey with the help of this forum will give you plenty to start your own book of “facts” and trusted studies
Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Have you read the first page of Shady's Sugar Shine? In the 15th post, Shady said the following:
After some experimenting
Deleting epsom salt and multi vitamins doesn't slow down the ferment.
Deleting the boiled yeast and/or "crushed shells with coral" definitely did.
Apparently vitamin B doesn't really matter. If you don't believe it, try testing it for yourself. Too many things in life have shown that following what has been alleged as 'consensus' is absolutely incorrect. There are countless examples and not just in distilling.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by LWTCS »

Tōtōchtin wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:53 pm I have spent 100's of hours looking for info here. I love this place but there is a lot of crap to read to find gems. I just spent 3 hours here and brew sites looking for the correct amount of nutrients for yeast. You can read where I add b vit. or dap, or yeast hulls but never the damn amount. how many mg of what type of b vit. would help. I dislike fools who say read to your eyes bleed with no knowledge of how much you have been looking already. Do a search here on the amount of nutrients needed,you will fall into a trap its hard to recover from. Tried and true is ok but SBB rum and it says a b vit no type or amount.
University studies, known facts could go into one place. Members could vote on them and put them here or the wiki area. The group could fix this no need for mods busting their ass. Ok rant over...
Toto
Google scratch made biscuits ( to also include Butter Swim Biscuits) and see how many interpretations there are for something as basic as combining flour, baking powder, salt.

Butter milk or not, cake flour or all purpose, little bit of sugar, no sugar, salted butter, unsalted butter, 450 degrees for 25 minutes or 425 degrees for 45 minutes. Those are only a few of the example variables.

Your request sounds simple on the surface but has more layers than a bushel of onions.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Tōtōchtin wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:53 pm I have spent 100's of hours looking for info here....
If you're eyes aren't bleeding then keep on reading :) Orders of magnitude help a lot :) 100 -> 1,000 -> 10,000

Amount of nutrients really depends on the makeup of the item you're fermenting which is often determined via lab tests. YAN content (Yeast Available Nitrogen) is worth researching in relation to nutrient addition quantity.

Cheers,
jonny
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by Tōtōchtin »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:14 am Have you read the first page of Shady's Sugar Shine? In the 15th post, Shady said the following:
After some experimenting
Deleting epsom salt and multi vitamins doesn't slow down the ferment.
Deleting the boiled yeast and/or "crushed shells with coral" definitely did.
Apparently vitamin B doesn't really matter. If you don't believe it, try testing it for yourself. Too many things in life have shown that following what has been alleged as 'consensus' is absolutely incorrect. There are countless examples and not just in distilling.
Many here hit on one thing I brought up, on my search of nutrients and how much to use. But what I wanted to try and get across is there is a lot of knowledge here scattered all over the place. Many of you have been here for a long time ,some it looks like from the beginning. You probably have gems from threads you copied from here and elsewhere. Scholarly journal articles,ect. The people here that have run many different types of stills, fermenting methods, recipes, you know what works and what doesn't. If all of that was in one place imagine the knowledge you could soak up in 100 hours of reading.
Doing a search for nutrients was an example, many say I add DAP but not how much, same in the above quote. Leaving out boiled yeast hurts, but how much boiled yeast. Wasn't pointing out SSB with his recipe. In my search someone said read to you bleed then go and use tried and true recipes. His is on I am familiar with so I used that as an example. B vitamin cap or tab. no mention of mg of anything. Do I get B1,B6, B12 ?
To the 30 people or so that seems to keep this place running helping us out I really appreciate all your help to the community. Especially helping me without you guys I would not have had the confidence to spend my life's saving buying still parts, and constructing something I have never seen before. Now my misses probably has a collection of dolls resembling moonshiners and is sticking pins in them...
I thank y'all for all your time spent,
T
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by jonnys_spirit »

A different phpbb forum I take part in has similarly deep info spread out over many many threads spanning many many years. They keep what they call a few "meta" threads. Those are essentially a topic based sticky where folks can compile links to noteworthy threads and short descriptions... It's still a bit scattered but very helpful.

If one were motivated enough they could spend the time and effort to contribute towards this or similar and if (perhaps in the wiki?) it were useful other folks may also catch on and contribute their own time towards the effort as well.

Cheers,
jonny
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by shadylane »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:14 am Have you read the first page of Shady's Sugar Shine? In the 15th post, Shady said the following:
After some experimenting
Deleting epsom salt and multi vitamins doesn't slow down the ferment.
Deleting the boiled yeast and/or "crushed shells with coral" definitely did.
Apparently vitamin B doesn't really matter. If you don't believe it, try testing it for yourself. Too many things in life have shown that following what has been alleged as 'consensus' is absolutely incorrect. There are countless examples and not just in distilling.
That's not saying magnesium or B-vits isn't needed.
What it means is boiled yeast can supply some of it.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by NZChris »

Tōtōchtin wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:53 pm Tried and true is ok but SBB rum and it says a b vit no type or amount.
When you do find answers, do your best to comprehend them, then record them in your notes, preferably in a searchable format.

When you come across a valuable document, download it. Count yourself lucky, I had to go to University libraries with pockets full of 20c pieces for the photocopier. Now, many of those works are freely available online and are searchable.

Narrow your research down to a specific product that you want make and don't only search this forum. Forums are great for getting ideas and directions for research, but you will often find more than one answer to a question. Often you have to look elsewhere for the science or logic behind the various suggestions so that you can make your own mind up which way to go.
Sometimes, it doesn't really matter and you've spent hours looking for a definitive answer to something doesn't make much difference either way.

I often search https://archive.org/ when researching subjects that are not well covered here.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by Tōtōchtin »

I have a bunch of articles I copied with research papers also.i have copied and pasted threads here also. I have poor memory from a tbi so I try to make it as easy as I can to access.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by NZChris »

All the more reason to narrow your research to one product at a time.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:21 pm A different phpbb forum I take part in has similarly deep info spread out over many many threads spanning many many years. They keep what they call a few "meta" threads. Those are essentially a topic based sticky where folks can compile links to noteworthy threads and short descriptions... It's still a bit scattered but very helpful.

If one were motivated enough they could spend the time and effort to contribute towards this or similar and if (perhaps in the wiki?) it were useful other folks may also catch on and contribute their own time towards the effort as well.

Cheers,
jonny
That's a great idea. We could label it "A little spoonfeeding for newbs" or something.... just spitballing here. Maybe cranky has some ideas :lol:
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by bilgriss »

If your eyes aren't bleeding
your brain needs feeding
Start the reading
It's patience your'e needing.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by still_stirrin »

Tōtōchtin wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:44 am… many say I add DAP but not how much … B vitamin cap or tab. no mention of mg of anything. Do I get B1,B6, B12 ?
For sugar washes (excluding molasses, however), I use 1 teaspoon of DAP (phosphorous and nitrogen) per 5 gallons. And I use 1/4 to 1/3 teaspoon of epsom salts (magnesium). I also use 1 crushed B-complex (all of the B’s) per 5 gallon wash.

But more importantly, I aerate my wash very good before pitching the yeast. And if using dry yeast, I ALWAYS rehydrate the yeast in warm (body temperature) water for 20-30 minutes before pitching. Rehydration is important to fill the cells with water before dumping it into a high gravity sugar solution. The cell walls are brittle and fragile when the yeast is dry. But when rehydrated, the cells are much stronger and ready for reproduction/budding.

Grain mashes usually do not need additional nutrients for fermentation because the grains provide most of the needed yeast nutrients.

Bleeding eyes or not, there will always be more threads to read, even if your habit of getting others to do “the reading” for you works. So, KEEP READING.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by still_stirrin »

FYI:

The most common compounds found in yeast nutrients are the following:

Diammonium Phosphate: This is a salt that provides a source of free amino nitrogen (FAN). This is the main ingredient in most yeast nutrient blends and is vital for yeast health. In most cases malt has a large amount of FAN so this nutrient is often not needed for beer making.

Yeast Hulls: Essentially this is dead yeast which acts as a source of lipids and fatty acids vital in providing resources for new yeast cell production.

Vitamins, Thiamin and Biotin: Yeast requires certain vitamins for cell growth and production just like our bodies do. Vitamins are added to nutrient blends to provide these important compounds. Biotin is a B-vitamin commonly used in making country wine production.

Magnesium, Zinc: These compounds are added to yeast nutrient to increase the cell count and magnesium aids yeast metabolism.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by Tōtōchtin »

Still_stirrin I thank you you for that,and I'll give you this freely,with no hardon cuz we're here to expand...
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... 02/jib.327
Taken from this "Journal of the Institute of Brewing"
Make sure you use your bi-focals ,don't want to cause your cranky ass any pain.
But seriously I do appreciate you guys for your help...
It's a study on vit E for yeast health.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by shadylane »

Here's a short read on yeasts nitrogen needs.

"a wort containing 180ppm of FAN will be sufficient for the vast majority of brewing yeasts"
Since their talking about 5% beer wort, I'm guessing more would be needed in a 10% sugar wash.

https://escarpmentlabs.com/en-us/blogs/ ... rmentation.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by still_stirrin »

Tōtōchtin wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:30 pm Still_stirrin I thank you you for that, and I'll give you this freely ...
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... 02/jib.327
Interesting read, T. Thanks for sourcing it.

I have not used vitamin E for brewing ever, but the study points to the advantages, especially for commercial producers where the (long-term) viability of their proprietary yeasts are critical to profits and sustain production. I can see the advantages to the anti-oxidant properties for yeast health (just like it is for humans). For producers of high gravity ferments, the improved viability may help reach attenuation before “alcohol shock” kills off the yeast.

Except for a few mead ferments that I’ve done, all of my beers are successfully fermented to attenuation without the additional vitamin E addition. And with the meads, where I have pushed the OG as high as the yeast tolerates, I would suppose that there are natural nutrients (lipids) in the honey to help sustain the yeast metabolism even in support of the higher alcohol concentrations.

Incidentally, for the absolutely highest “potential”, I will feed the ferment with additional must as the ferment progresses. This allows the ferment to work with a high density of active yeast, while it controls the fermentation rate to reduce undesirable congeners.

So, this study is worth reading by all brewers, but especially commercial producers.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by bluefish_dist »

As others have said, food required for the yeast is variable. I worked up to what my recipe needed based on manufactures technical data sheets. I used pre mixed yeast nutrient and they gave a range of how much to use. Pure sugar needs more, all grain a lot less. The only shortcut is to use a tried and true. A good place to Learn fermentation is from brewers. We as distillers tend to not spend much time on fermentation, but for beer it’s the whole process. I would see if you can find a home brew group and learn fermentation there. I know I left some on the table by not getting down into the weeds and working out what I needed based on water and ingredients in each mash.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by shadylane »

Yeast for sale, that was grown on boiled yeast.
PUGIDOGS should have gotten a trade mark. :lol:

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-con ... igital.pdf
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by Hoosier Shine9 »

LWTCS wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 8:43 am

Google scratch made biscuits ( to also include Butter Swim Biscuits) and see how many interpretations there are for something as basic as combining flour, baking powder, salt.

Butter milk or not, cake flour or all purpose, little bit of sugar, no sugar, salted butter, unsalted butter, 450 degrees for 25 minutes or 425 degrees for 45 minutes. Those are only a few of the example variables.

Your request sounds simple on the surface but has more layers than a bushel of onions.
Thanks Larry, :evil:
Now i need to make Biscuits when I get home......
Last edited by Hoosier Shine9 on Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by Yonder »

Seems most responses are based on your example rather than on the purpose of your post. Strange. Shortsighted. I don’t know of any restriction on opening a new topic, so do it. May or may not get good responses but at least make the efforts. Can’t be worse than some of the off topic subjects.
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Re: A thread for approved studies and known facts

Post by LWTCS »

Yonder wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:42 pm Seems most responses are based on your example rather than on the purpose of your post. Strange. Shortsighted. I don’t know of any restriction on opening a new topic, so do it. May or may not get good responses but at least make the efforts. Can’t be worse than some of the off topic subjects.
There is no restriction beyond what's contained in the rules we live by.

By all means start the thread OP.
If you want the forthcoming information to stay on topic ( as you envision) then post some clear and concise ground rules in your opening post.

Take for example the Diagrams & Plans thread:
viewtopic.php?t=19711
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