uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

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sadie33
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by sadie33 »

subbrew wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:58 pm
sadie33 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:26 pm

Did I miss understand this? It sounds to me you take what you collect in your stripping run and put it in your spirit run. But it is a little confusing because he never talks about a stripping run or spirit run, just first run or second run.
You understood correctly. I had forgotten that part of the original instructions. By putting all the first generation low wines in the second generation he is trying to get move of the sour mash flavor into the low wines. Other than taking a bit longer to run the second generation stripping run there is certainly no downside.
okay. I do get easily confused. Just when I think I get it, I don't. I thought I did that again.
thanks
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by 6 Row Joe »

Do it or do not. It really doesn't matter much. It will just take longer (another batch) to get a better product. You can use all of the first run in the second and it will be good. Use some of it, it will be good. Use just the feints, it will be good. Like I said before, UJ is quite forgiving. I have forgotten to add some backset and it was still good. I have failed to clean the spent corn out and replace it with new corn and it was still a good run. Don't sweat the small stuff. It will be fine.
Last edited by 6 Row Joe on Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Saltbush Bill »

sadie33 wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:26 pm Your first distillation run will be a "sweet" run since you will not have any backset to use for sour mashing. I recommend using the spirits you collect in your first run as feints for the next run. Yes, all of them. Your second run will produce your first batch of sour mash,
I think that is a part of the method that many have overlooked, I know that I certainly did.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by bilgriss »

First batch doesn't have the flavor that subsequent ones do. It's not that it "hurts" to use it with other low wines, but it's going to 'dilute' the overall sour mash flavor. You can fudge and get around this if you have some backset from something else, preferably corn-centric like bourbon and start from that. But of course that will alter it too in a different way.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

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I have a question on the cuts for this, when he says-
"By law any spirits collected above 80% cannot be called whiskey because they are considered too "light" or neutral. In other words, they are too high in proof and thus do not properly imbue the spirit with the flavor of the grain mash. I use anything collected above 80% as feints for the next run. For more information on the legal definitions for whiskies and other spirits check out Title 27 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations."
Does he mean 80% at the spout or in the collection vessel?
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Saltbush Bill »

You don't need to worry about that with UJ......collect in jars as always......keep what smells/ tastes good. Toss the fores into the firelighter jar..... do what you will with heads and tails.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:00 pm You don't need to worry about that with UJ......collect in jars as always......keep what smells/ tastes good. Toss the fores into the firelighter jar..... do what you will with heads and tails.
thanks SB
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:00 pm You don't need to worry about that with UJ......collect in jars as always......keep what smells/ tastes good. Toss the fores into the firelighter jar..... do what you will with heads and tails.
+1
Don't get hung up on proof until you get a good idea of what you like in your final blend. Every ferment is going to be a little different, and you need to learn how to pick out what you like in each jar, and what it will contribute to the final product.
If you're going to start making UJ, and repeat it for a few generations, you will learn a lot, and build up a good amount of stock of aging before you venture down the All Grain rabbit hole.
IMHO it's a good idea to check proof of each jar and record it in a log for each run, because it will help you learn how to consistently run your still.
Additionally, if you are recording volumes and ABV of each jar, as you pour each jar into your final blend, you'll be able to quickly determine the volume and ABV of the final blend. Its about the only thing I use Excel for at home.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by sadie33 »

Deplorable wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:49 pm
Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:00 pm You don't need to worry about that with UJ......collect in jars as always......keep what smells/ tastes good. Toss the fores into the firelighter jar..... do what you will with heads and tails.
+1
Don't get hung up on proof until you get a good idea of what you like in your final blend. Every ferment is going to be a little different, and you need to learn how to pick out what you like in each jar, and what it will contribute to the final product.
If you're going to start making UJ, and repeat it for a few generations, you will learn a lot, and build up a good amount of stock of aging before you venture down the All Grain rabbit hole.
IMHO it's a good idea to check proof of each jar and record it in a log for each run, because it will help you learn how to consistently run your still.
Additionally, if you are recording volumes and ABV of each jar, as you pour each jar into your final blend, you'll be able to quickly determine the volume and ABV of the final blend. Its about the only thing I use Excel for at home.
It's so strange because I do my "reading" and then everyone's like- don't do it like that... :lolno: I find that funny, kinda.

I am planning to stick with this for a while till I am more comfortable with the recipe, fermenting and my still in general. I figure by the fall I will switch to a rum and I like the look of that honey bear bourbon. :thumbup:

That's funny you use Excel for that. My Dad keeps trying to get me to use computer software for things, but I am a pen and paper person. I just can't do it.

thanks for the info!
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

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If you do keep digital records, they are searchable and you can easily find them in a few years time when you are wanting to repeat your successes and not repeat your mistakes.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by sadie33 »

Just did my cuts and ended up with 4.5 cups @ 71%. I have a 2L oak cask all soaked, clean and ready to fill. I want to oak it at around 63% right? I saw a few different % some higher and some low. It seems you get different flavors at different %. I want the more vanilla/caramel and I think that's around 63% right? I don't want to mess it up now.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by tag1260 »

Can I just leave a little bit of the mash instead of set back? Made a little too much and rather that just pitch it was wondering. Thanks
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Why not just strip the rest of it?
It also helps to use the right wording if you want correct answers to questions.
It's backset, and nothing has been " mashed" so it's not a mash.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by subbrew »

tag1260 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:14 pm Can I just leave a little bit of the mash instead of set back? Made a little too much and rather that just pitch it was wondering. Thanks
You can, it will just be different than using backset. If you leave wash it is the same as if you were bad at squeezing the grain and left more in there. It will lower PH of the new wash so the yeast will be happy. It will just be different than the sour mash (even though it is a wash) of the recipe.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by 6 Row Joe »

I found some Amburana chips on E bay and put 1/10 oz. in a pint of UJSSM/rye that was borderline over oaked with dark toast chips. (just something I wanted to experiment with) When I strained out the Amburana chips I thought it was way to over done but it did have rich baking spices, clove, nutmeg, and the sweet and spicy from the UJ and rye. After setting in the jar a few weeks it turned into a smooth, creamy, syrup that smells and tastes like Grandma's kitchen at Thanksgiving. A friend tried it and said it was easy top 5 for the best he has ever tasted. I had to leave the 200ml. sample for him to enjoy. Now I have to duplicate the recipe to make more. I might try a little less chips for a longer time to see what happens. It was frickin' delicious. Give it a try. Cheers.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by PMWB »

Hey guys,
Just trying to get some clarification here.
I started my first generation UJSSM about 4 days ago. Looks like the wash is done and ready for siphoning. I've been perusing these 156 some odd pages, I haven't been able to find a solid answer concerning the volume of fresh water to replace back into the fermenter.
I followed Uncle Jesse's original 5 gallon recipe. I also know due to the corn and yeast bed at the bottom, there will be some of that 5 gallons i wont be able to recover during siphoning. Do I just replace the water volume I siphoned, minus the water added to keep the yeast hydrated and minus the 20-25% backset?
Thank you all for your time and knowledge, and looking forward to your responses.
Steve.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by wscywabbit »

There's several ways that you can do this, its kinda dealer's choice. I usually scraped out the faded old corn off the top of what was left after siphoning (usually not more than 5-6 cups) and replaced that with the same amount of new corn. Then I would fill my bucket fermenter up to about a gallon shy of my target so the yeast wouln't get dried out while I ran the still. When I was done with the still, I would take about 1/2 gallon of backset out of the still boiler and poor it into another container with my new sugar addition. Stir it up and let it cool off until it is safe to add to your fermenter (80-90 degrees). Then top off your fermenter with water, cover it up and let it go again. Easy peazy.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Sporacle »

I siphon down to just above the grain bed into a 20L bucket (full)

Remove 4 cups of corn

Add 4 cups of corn and add water to cover if neccesary

Add 3L of backset to 20L bucket, add sugar and dissolve, top up water to 20L and add back to fermentor.

Works well for me
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by PMWB »

wscywabbit and Sporacle.
Thank you both for the speedy response and the sage advice.
And a big thank you to Uncle Jesse as well for sharing his recipe!
I'm excited to try a sip or three of this recipe down the road, when all is said and done...
Steve.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by PMWB »

Well fellas,
Here is my UJSSM update from today's 1st generation stripping run.
OG=1.060.
FG=0.990
Potential alcohol of wash 9.1%

I managed to siphon 15 of the original 19 liters from my fermenter. I slowly tipped the fermenter to get what I could without disturbing the grain bed too much. As I siphoned, I filtered the wash thru a coffee filter and wire strainer into a clean 20 litre pail.
I pulled about 5 cups of spent corn and replaced with same amount of fresh corn.
I added about 8 liters of water to the fermenter. I probably didn't need that much as the grain bed and lees were pretty well still submerged.
Poured the wash into my very low brow, 8 gal. Vervor "water distillation unit"... :) and cranked the heat.
Pulled and discarded the first 250ml of foreshots, and commenced to dialing in the water flow into my worm bucket condenser.
Ran it till my distilate ABV hit 15% and the vapour temp hit 209°F. I then shut her down.
I pulled about 3-1/4 liters of distillate with a total ABV of 36%. This will go back into the still when i do the 2nd generation run.
I ended up using 4.75 liters of hot backset and stirred in 7.5 lbs of sugar. To which I added another 6.5 litres of cool water. Brought the temp of the backset sugar mixture down to 90°F. I aerated the mixture by pouring back and forth between two buckets. I then dumped it into the fermenter. Then stirred and aerated again until I couldn't take it anymore!
So now I'm sitting at about 22 litres, almost 6 gallons total in my fermenter. It's a little more than the original recipe so that's why I added an extra 1/2 lb of sugar.
My wash now has a staring specific gravity of 1.064. corrected to 23°C. And it is bubbling up a storm! :D
I hope this will turn out okay...
I'm hoping the next run I'll be able to siphon a full 5 gal/19 litres from the fermenter without messing around with the lees and corn at the bottom.
I'll post another update when I run the 2nd generation!
If you guys have any thoughts or comments, of what I should do different or better, please feel free to let me know.
Thanks all and have a great day!
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Sporacle »

PMWB,
Personally i would strip a bit lower into the 25 to 30 abv range for the total strip.

Be mindful of the amount of backset you add to subsequent generations.
I add about 3 to a total volume of 20
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Saltbush Bill »

PMWB wrote: Thu Apr 27, 2023 3:12 pm I probably didn't need that much as the grain bed and lees were pretty well still submerged.
As long as the grain / yeast bed is still wet and has a tiny covering of water that is all that is needed.
Sporacle's advice regarding stripping lower and not using to much backset is spot on.
Get it right and this sugarhead will keep going generation after generation for years to come.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by PMWB »

Sporacle,
Saltbush Bill,
I will definitely follow your advice gentlemen. I've read a fair bit here about using too much backset. I realize it can negatively effect the yeast by eventually building too much acidity in the wash.
I was aiming to run the distillate right down to 10% before shutting it down. However the distillate started to cloud up, so of course I panicked and shut it down at 15% and 209°F.
Should I have lowered the power a bit once I got down to 15%? Would that help reduce the clouding of the distillate?
I know my cheap ass equipment is lacking in quality right now, but I am planning to rectify the situation by building a new 15.5 gallon SS keg boiler...and optinal reflux tower. Of course, I have already cleared the biggest hurdle. And that is getting the approval from "The Minister of Finance and Fiscal Restraint"... :lol:
Anyway,
I am definitely loving how aromatic the wash is!! I'm really looking forward to giving it a taste when I run generation II.

Once again, to all the members of this incredible forum, I appreciate the knowledge and advice you so willingly share. :thumbup:
Thank so much and have a great day!
Steve.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Sporacle »

I aim to have a cloudy distillate on my strip runs.
Power should not be an issue as long as your condensor can keep up.
As the abv of the wash decreases during the strip the boiling point increases. Be aware that the condensor will work harder so keep an eye on it (my distillate on a strip towards the end of the run is pretty warm)
You want to condense as much flavour as possible into your low wines
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by PMWB »

Sporacle wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:25 am I aim to have a cloudy distillate on my strip runs.

You want to condense as much flavour as possible into your low wines
Sporacle,
What you say here about capturing as much flavor as possible from your stripping runs,
makes sense to me, now that I think about it.
Im curious, how many generations of stripping distillate do you suggest I collect before combining them all for a spirit run?
Judging by what I collected from my first stripping run (about 3/4 of a gallon see picture).
1st gen distillate 36% abv
1st gen distillate 36% abv
I should shoot for about 4 or 5 generations???
I have an 8 gallon boiler.
Thanks and I appreciate all your help.
Steve.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Sporacle »

8 gallon boiler
6 gallon charge at 30abv would be my thoughts, so whatever you need to get there.
Generations wise, you can keep it ticking over for years and years.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by PMWB »

Sporacle wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 1:03 pm 8 gallon boiler
6 gallon charge at 30abv would be my thoughts, so whatever you need to get there.
Generations wise, you can keep it ticking over for years and years.
Sporacle,
Well, 6 gallons is really going to be testing my resolve and patience...
I'm gonna need a bigger fermenter! :ebiggrin:
Rome wasn't built in a day, right?
Appreciate your insight and guidance.
Take care and have a good one.
Steve.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by subbrew »

PMWB wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 12:16 pm
Im curious, how many generations of stripping distillate do you suggest I collect before combining them all for a spirit run?
Judging by what I collected from my first stripping run (about 3/4 of a gallon see picture).
16827126077597705585759496869593.jpg
I should shoot for about 4 or 5 generations???
I have an 8 gallon boiler.
Thanks and I appreciate all your help.
Steve.
If you strip down to 10% off the spout you should get about 25% or a bit more of the boiler charge in low wines. (it varies depending the mash/wash abv). So if you are doing 6 gallon charges in your 8 gal still you should get about 1.5 to 1.7 gal per stripping run. If you want a 6 gallon charge for the spirit run that would be 3 to 4 generations. Most threads will mention a three stripping run combined for one spirit run ratio.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by PMWB »

Subbrew,
Well, 25% return from initial boiler charge sounds pretty good. I ended up leaving a little extra wash in my fermenter while setting up my first stripping run, so I should "theoretically" be able to pull almost 5.5 gallons of wash out of my fermenter.
I will make sure to measure volumes of wash and total distillate when I do my gen 2 run in the next few days here. Hopefully I will be somewhat close to your estimated volumes!
Man, I really love this forum!
Thanks, I appreciate your input.
Steve.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Brewfiend »

Uncle Jesse wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:47 pm I'd appreciate any comments on this, especially ways in which i need to simplify things or explain things more clearly.

http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php ... ash_Method



This method was originally taken from J.W. Walstad's book Simple Sour Mash to Simple Alcohol Fuel! and has been modified according to my experiences.

This method is the most inexpensive I have found for producing Corn Whiskey. It is perfect for beginners because it does not rely on skill for mashing and does not require any cooking which greatly reduces the hassles and expenses.

I used this method for years until I mastered the processes involved in creating a quality sour mash whiskey, at which point I moved on to cooked mashes and more advanced efforts.


Ingredients

For a 5 gallon mash: (~19 liters)
5 gallons soft, filtered water.
7 lbs (3.2kg) cracked corn. 6-8 pieces/kernel is the proper crack. If using bird feed, make sure it is perishable, or in other words is free of preservatives.
7 lbs (3.2kg) of granulated sugar.
1 tbsp yeast (distillers yeast if available.)


Theory

Unlike a cooked mash, a simple mash does not rely on grains for starch. The corn is included for a bit of alcohol, but mainly for flavor while the sugar provides the alcohol. The conversion of starches to sugars is a natural process, accelerated by cooking. An uncooked mash will convert starches to sugars but much more slowly and less efficiently. Your added sugar will ferment rather easily and will provide most of the alcohol in your beer.

Your first distillation run will be a "sweet" run since you will not have any backset to use for sour mashing. I recommend using the spirits you collect in your first run as feints for the next run. Yes, all of them. Your second run will produce your first batch of sour mash, which will be good, but in truth the flavor and consistency will not start to reach their peak until the third or fourth run in my experience.

Practice, practice, practice!


First Fermentation

Put your ingredients into the fermenter in the order listed and close it. You should start to see fermentation of the sugar within 12 hours. It should take 3 or 4 days for the ebullition to end. Siphon your beer out of the fermenter with a racking cane and charge your still.

Siphoning is the best method because it allows you to pull the beer off the top of your lees, leaving them undisturbed. You do not want suspended solids in your still and this method works quite well in keeping the lees at the bottom of your fermenter.

At this point you need to make your first decision. How much backset will you use in your subsequent mashes? The legal minimum for a sour mash is 25%. I do not like to go above 50% in my experience. For the sake of simplicity, let's say you will start with 25% backset. This means that for a 5 gallon mash you will use 1-1/4 gallons (~4.75 liters) of backset and 3-3/4 gallons (~14.25 liters) of water.

Since you will be running your still for hours, you do not want to leave the fermenter empty. Put your 3-3/4 gallons of water back into the fermenter so your yeast won't die while you distill. While you're at it, this is a perfect time to scoop the spent corn off the top and replace with an equal volume of newly cracked corn. Later we'll add the 1-1/4 gallons of backset and 7 more pounds of granulated sugar.


Basics of Pot Distillation

There are two basic types of pot distillation:

The first involves a traditional pot still, which has no cooling in the neck or column. The distillate produced is lower in proof than that produced by a reflux still with a fractionating or splitting column. This is the traditional method of distillation and requires multiple runs. The distiller will save up enough low wines from the first runs or stripping runs to fill the still for a second run. If a triple distillation is desired, the product from second distillations are collected until enough spirit is saved to fill the still for the third spirit run, and so on.

The second type of pot distillation is performed in a reflux still equipped such that the column can be cooled during distillation. This type of still is far more efficient and can produce a high proof, high quality spirit in a single run.


First Run

Pot distill your wash, being careful to keep things running slowly. For beginners, 2-3 drops of distillate exiting the worm every second is just about the perfect speed. As you collect, periodically put 4-5 drops of distillate into a spoon with an equal amount of water and sip it. You will learn to identify the off-taste of the heads very quickly.

For your first run it is best to take very conservative cuts. I recommend very generic whiskey cuts, say 80% down to 70%. As your skills improve you will be able to go deeper into your cuts, tasting periodically for the off-taste of the tails. Once you learn to identify the off-tastes of the heads and tails you will be able to make proper cuts without the use of a hydrometer, a big step toward becoming a competent distiller.

By law any spirits collected above 80% cannot be called whiskey because they are considered too "light" or neutral. In other words, they are too high in proof and thus do not properly imbue the spirit with the flavor of the grain mash. I use anything collected above 80% as feints for the next run. For more information on the legal definitions for whiskies and other spirits check out Title 27 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations.

Remember to discard the first 150ml or 5 fluid ounces collected so you don't get a build-up of nasty esters etc. over time in your batches.


Second Fermentation

Your fermenter should now contain 3-3/4 gallons of water, your old yeast (barm) and your old corn.

Take 1-1/4 gallons of backset from your previous distillation and add to it another 7 pounds of granulated sugar. This will dissolve the sugar rather easily. Hot backset directly from the still works better at dissolving sugar, but adding hot backset to your fermenter will kill your yeast, so allow the backset to cool if you use this method.

Next, add this mixture of sugar and cooled backset to your fermenter, which already contains 3-3/4 gallons of water. This will bring your total beer volume back to 5 gallons.

Now is the time to make sure you have removed and replaced any spent corn kernels, which float to the top of the fermenter. You only need to do this if you plan on a continual ferment, that is, past 7 or 8 fermentations at which point your corn would otherwise be expended.

Cover the fermenter and let it ferment for another 3-4 days or until the ebullition ends.

Congratulations, if you have done everything properly you are now ready to run your first sour mash!


Second Run

Siphon off your beer and charge your still. Again, replace 3-3/4 gallons of water into your fermenter so your yeast doesn't die while you distill.

Distill your whiskey in the same manner you did during your first run, being conservative with your cuts until you gain more skill. Anything collected under 80% ABV on this run is considered a Sour Mash whiskey. Congratulations! This spirit is a palatable moonshine when collected directly out of the still.

Collect your run down to your stopping point. Again, I recommend 70% ABV for beginners, perhaps a few degrees into the 60's if you are bold. Save all of the spirit run as good sippin' whiskey.

Most moonshiners keep running their stills long after they are finished with the spirit run, collecting down to about 20% ABV before stopping. Together, the heads and tails are reused as feints. I do not normally go as low as 20%, you'll have to find your comfort zone. If you start to get blue or green flecks in your spirit, you've gone too far or run things too hot.


Repeat the Process

After your run, collect 1-1/4 gallons of backset to return to the fermenter for your next batch. Repeat the process starting at the Second Fermentation.

You are now producing a simple sour mash whiskey and with practice you will be able to produce a very high quality moonshine. Age this whiskey in an uncharred oak barrel to produce a traditional Tennessee-style whiskey.


Safety first, Duke boys. Have fun!



So, for 40l wash. Recipe goes like this.

7kg cracked feed corn,
7kg raw or white sugar (I like raw)
Dissolve sugar in hot water, then add enough cold water to make 40 l total.


Strip in potstill discarding 100ml of foreshots down to 20%. Save the strip. While the drum is empty, scrape off 1/3rd of a bucket of corn and add 1/3rd of a bucket of new corn.
Add some water (20l or so) to the yeast bed so you don’t burn the yeast next step.

Use 10l of hot slops (backset from the still run) to dissolve 7 more kg of sugar, stir it up and add to the drum. Add water to bring it up to the level it was before.

Watch it ferment and strip again and again.

When you have 40l of strip saved up, do a slow spirit run in the potstill making careful cuts. Age it on toasted oak sticks.

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I'm just doing my first distillation. Even the first run tastes an awful lot like whiskey but I'm getting a slightly stale flavour. This is more present in the heads but it seems to Linger right through the hearts portion. I did use feed corn not sure if oaking and or aging balances the flavour.
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