Koji bourbon

[Jr-dist]

Has anyone tried making bourbon using koji for your enzymes? Going to try it using aspergillis luechuensis from Okinawa, its a black koji traditionaly used to make awamori. Would love to hear about your experience with.

[Bushman]

No but keep us posted on how it turns out for you.

[jonnys_spirit]

Check out the “No Mash No Sugar” thread. That uses something similar to koji. I’m deep into cultivating and “fermenting” with koji but haven’t done it yet for bourbon. The regular way works great and doesn’t need fixing IMHO. I might eventually make some sochu or similar though.

I did have an idea to use a high protease cultivated koji along with high amylase cultivated koji and keeping a good portion of spent grains sitting for an extended time (through multiple ferments) to break the proteins down as a contribution to the spirit - I might try that at some point. Maybe a bucket full of spent grains saved from each batch innoculated with the high protease koji then added to the ferment along with amylase koji next batch - process & repeat.

Interested to see what you think though!

Cheers!
-j

[Jr-dist]

The protease would I believe be like your sourmashng your ferment. The proteins released would give your yeast a lot of nutrients like scooping dead yeast fron your previous mash for multiple generations. Sounds interesting really I thought about getting some protease strains for that reason but decided one type of koji will be enough headache.

[jonnys_spirit]

The protease breaks down and converts complex proteins into flavorful amino’s. The amylase converts starches into sugars. When making an amino paste from koji you cultivate the koji to primarily have more protease while if you’re using it for eg; amizake you cultivate it primarily for amylase. The amino pastes can take a year+ so it’ll be a series of small batch experiments if ever lol.

I wouldn’t use salt to protect it against infection of course. Just wonder if the etoh and acidity left in the spent grains would be adequate protection while not denaturing the enzymes…

Cheers!
-j

[redz242]

Has anyone tried making bourbon using koji for your enzymes? Going to try it using aspergillis luechuensis from Okinawa, its a black koji traditionaly used to make awamori. Would love to hear about your experience with.

Here! Here! I use koji all the time even in my Brandie’s.

[rubberduck71]

It's the short-cut/cheat code, but I & others on here have made whiskey with rice & YLAY.

It's good, but "different" than traditional grain-based spirit. I'm not sure how to describe it...

Experiment, enjoy!

[squigglefunk]

i'm working on a "no mash no sugar" all corn whiskey as we speak. I used Angel Yeast Yellow Label Starter of Liquor Making

it's getting put on oak whether it likes it or not.

initial impressions were weird but it might just make something good so I figured why not give it a chance.

[redz242]

i'm working on a "no mash no sugar" all corn whiskey as we speak. I used Angel Yeast Yellow Label Starter of Liquor Making

it's getting put on oak whether it likes it or not.

initial impressions were weird but it might just make something good so I figured why not give it a chance.

Hey funk as it age it will get way better I never use angel yeast but if it has any of the aspergillus in there I can advocate for it but I’d advise to create your own it will be better faster and you might can create a taste only you can make

[Nanacooks]

I know this thread has been here a while, but just saw it. Started some Koji about a week or so ago. First batch is for a traditional sake, with sweet rice. I also want to do an all corn mash in honor of my Dad, an Illinois born corn and dairy farmer, and seems really fitting. I used cornmeal, soaked it and then cooked it. Once cooked I added my Koji, and put both batches in a cooler with a sous vide to maintain constant temps. I started the rice in a tub, and didn’t seem to be getting the results I was hoping for so I put it into a bag as well. Once the starters were going well, I started my sake in a bucket and the corn in a barrel. Both are bubbling along nicely as we speak. I’m excited to see how things progress and I’ve been keeping detailed notes.

[redz242]

I know this thread has been here a while, but just saw it. Started some Koji about a week or so ago. First batch is for a traditional sake, with sweet rice. I also want to do an all corn mash in honor of my Dad, an Illinois born corn and dairy farmer, and seems really fitting. I used cornmeal, soaked it and then cooked it. Once cooked I added my Koji, and put both batches in a cooler with a sous vide to maintain constant temps. I started the rice in a tub, and didn’t seem to be getting the results I was hoping for so I put it into a bag as well. Once the starters were going well, I started my sake in a bucket and the corn in a barrel. Both are bubbling along nicely as we speak. I’m excited to see how things progress and I’ve been keeping detailed notes.

Hey buddy it didn’t go well because it seems like it wasn’t getting oxygen I use nut strainer cloth and cheap turkey foil pan maybe a pillow case to cover depending on which cloth I use mold are just like humans.

How did the corn go and taste I’ve used Indian field and even kennel corn koji but never corn meal I should try it because my cornmeal might taste fabulous.

[redz242]

i'm working on a "no mash no sugar" all corn whiskey as we speak. I used Angel Yeast Yellow Label Starter of Liquor Making

it's getting put on oak whether it likes it or not.

initial impressions were weird but it might just make something good so I figured why not give it a chance.

Did you get any success and how it tasted

[elbono]

I've just started playing with oaking but my first experiment was 50/25/25 corn rice wheat that was pretty good. Results varied with toast/char but all were very drinkable.

Next batch was all corn and about the same while still different.

Latest is 50/25/25 rice/corn/wheat. First sampling was strange, first sip said cinnamon, next said licorice, then back to cinnamon. Other toast/char combos still unknown.

All this was "nuclear" aging. T-Pee aging method not ready yet...

[squigglefunk]

Did you get any success and how it tasted

we got months to go for the oak aged stuff, the white dog mellowed out pretty nicely.
I have done an all rice and a corn with rice backset as well since. They are all good, it does taste different to "real" mashing to me but it is pretty simple. A guy who runs a big local brewery thought the white dog all rice was delicious, said most home made stuff tastes like rubbing alcohol. I haven't put any of that on oak yet, I have a few gallons left to play with.

[redz242]

I've just started playing with oaking but my first experiment was 50/25/25 corn rice wheat that was pretty good. Results varied with toast/char but all were very drinkable.

Next batch was all corn and about the same while still different.

T-Pee aging method not ready yet...

Is it with koji, Nuruk, or fungal? And which source?

Did you get any success and how it tasted

Nice I have some flavored sake I think on running but I’ve got a bottle of rice vodka whiskey, white dawg and aged bout a year and half old I stay dipping in it same as the corn & rice also double malt corn and oat both inoculated.
I don’t like the barley and corn mix maybe after aging I did my barley through the citrus inoculation where it’s more acidic not advised so much of the acid comes through distilling. I’m experimenting on a shochu with Starches found in the Caribbean or heavily used.

[rubberduck71]

A guy who runs a big local brewery thought the white dog all rice was delicious, said most home made stuff tastes like rubbing alcohol.

I wonder if people are giving him samples of stuff that's too widely cut?

I'm super stingy (ZERO heads & only dip into tails if I'm feeling adventurous & patient).


I've found that the YLAY on 100% rice makes a fantastic neutral. I still have some white dog @ 55%, and also have oaked some. I mentioned in another thread that I'm too lazy to find/link, but it's got a "thicker" or "creamier" mouthfeel than the regular grains we use? Not bad, just different.

I may dabble in adding it as a 10% of grain bill just to see how things change. The recipe I've done the most is SCD's CROW.

[redz242]

A guy who runs a big local brewery thought the white dog all rice was delicious, said most home made stuff tastes like rubbing alcohol.

I wonder if people are giving him samples of stuff that's too widely cut?

I'm super stingy (ZERO heads & only dip into tails if I'm feeling adventurous & patient).

Well to be honest I don’t know about squiggle funk but I fungal everything now less heads for the way I ferment. But I do get double the tails which I proof with. I see alot of senior man on here saying 15% and higher taste like shit well. Well less heads and my maturity time cut down no more nail polish smell after 3 oz a forshots.


10% would do a good job if they are a strong incubation I made ujssm with just corn and handful less then half a cup I’m on generation 5 only thing I do was change spent grains. it does taste creamy like you said try adding coconut and oats for more creaminess and very very thick mouthfeel

[elbono]

Is it with koji, Nuruk, or fungal? And which source?

I used YLAY so exact strains of fungus and yeast are unknown. I consider it Koji for dummies.

I was surprised at how much difference heavy rice content made on the finished product flavor.

Sorry if I derailed your thread.

[redz242]

No man I was waiting on ya response. I never used ylay but I collected my own black and white spores.

What type of notes and taste you got? I got a rice banana pudding smell and taste with watermelon with a hint of cocoa juice.

[squigglefunk]

I wonder if people are giving him samples of stuff that's too widely cut?

I'm super stingy (ZERO heads & only dip into tails if I'm feeling adventurous & patient).

there are so many factors, heads and tails are of course part of it but how the still is run is important too (pot still in my case), I must admit I was ignorant to it for a while and I am starting to get it a little I feel. This is just as important as "cuts" to me. I am going in a lot of directions all the time so my journey might take longer than others but I'm still at it and the product is getting better all the time. This has little to do with koji maybe but it's all connected for sure.

The next mold/yeast project I am hoping to try will be nuruk as it sounds to be more geared towards wheat grains.

[redz242]

I wonder if people are giving him samples of stuff that's too widely cut?

I'm super stingy (ZERO heads & only dip into tails if I'm feeling adventurous & patient).

there are so many factors, heads and tails are of course part of it but how the still is run is important too (pot still in my case), I must admit I was ignorant to it for a while and I am starting to get it a little I feel. This is just as important as "cuts" to me. I am going in a lot of directions all the time so my journey might take longer than others but I'm still at it and the product is getting better all the time. This has little to do with no mash no sugar maybe but it's all connected for sure.

The next mold/yeast project I am hoping to try will be nuruk as it sounds to be more geared towards wheat grains......... but I will prob be cooking the grains so that wont be for this thread either lol

Yes finally you’re on board Nuruk even work best with fruits that takes long to mature.
How your cut while using mold? My opinion it makes my cuts easier smelling tasting. Especially when running generational

[squigglefunk]

How your cut while using mold? My opinion it makes my cuts easier smelling tasting. Especially when running generational

the cuts smell quite different to me compared to other more traditional "western" style whiskey mashes... I haven't seen anything incredible more or less on the cuts but like I said I think a lot of that has to do with running the still right as well.

what do you mean by running generational?

[redz242]

Generational runs sorry! Like sour mashes I normally get grains by the 50lbs bag so I try run it before the bugs do.

[elbono]

What type of notes and taste you got? I got a rice banana pudding smell and taste with watermelon with a hint of cocoa juice.

I'm struggling to describe the 50% rice. I've only tasted what I nuked with white oak toasted 4 hr @ 350F. Maybe cinnamon? Buttery? Toasty?

The all corn and 50% corn (with YLAY) came out more like normal bourbon flavors.

I gave a sample to a friend to get his impressions on the 50% rice.

[redz242]

Nice with the corn I get the same but more cream and tropical chocolate notes Haitian grits are more starchy and milky. I used a mixture of spores from different substrate to make the corn.

I’m bias with the rice because I use to love wheat until distilled rice hit my taste buds I just love the savory sweet pudding creamy mouthfeel with the tropical sometimes coco taste.

[Beerswimmer]

I have used YLAY over the past years to make all kinds of whiskies from bourbon to 100% oats. It has changed whiskey for me completely! Whiskey used to be a big PITA due to mashing, now whiskies are some of the easiest things to make. To me, YLAY gives zero flavor or smell to the product. No yeast or fermentation smells/flavors, just the grains. Whiskies made without backset are incredible! Like drinking sweet grains!

[redz242]

Yes you right Nuruk too but it’s slower but it produces more flavor and alcohol if you like more richness. I’m in the processes of trying to see what tempeh would be like.

[Facter]

I love aspergillosis threads

I don't believe Nuruk is slower at all, I've had ones they went way off the charts and finished in three or four days - it depends on the Nuruk you use. most of the store bought stuff isn't that fresh or considered potent...fresh it home made stuff is the best!

anyways, I've done pretty much now over a hundred batches of Koji/Nuruk/daqu spirits, and Ive done about up to gen 10 of sour mash Koji bourbon and maybe up to gen 4 of a Nuruk based bourbon, and numerous varieties of Koji)Nuruk whiskeya....they're all totally different and both ASpg sources are pretty amazing. But very very different to each other. I've done a bourbon with a combination of home made/imported daqu also and again, amazing, but different again to Koji and Nuruk. Koji has great umami, and a sweetness to it, which coupled with corn can be a lot, but also some great eatery bits. Nuruk is flat out funk and fruit. Daqu can have fruit but also a deep earthy vibe, which if you're had baijiu you'd recognise.

What I *can* say from having made so much and gone way down the rabbit hole than I ever thought I would and no idea if a time else ever has (please reach out!) is that YLAY is a very very poor substitute. It's like the turbo yeast of the Aspergillus family. Sure great for making a neutral, but YLAY will always leave a weird off flavour at the back of the palette, and the fruit is a muted rottenish fruity flavour, not the vibrant one I get from other sources.

Anyways, I wrote a shochu guide that's posted around here somewhere, always revising it and getting feedback but it has a lot of info on my Koji based processes

[redz242]

I love aspergillosis threads

I don't believe Nuruk is slower at all, I've had ones they went way off the charts and finished in three or four days - it depends on the Nuruk you use. most of the store bought stuff isn't that fresh or considered potent...fresh it home made stuff is the best!

anyways, I've done pretty much now over a hundred batches of Koji/Nuruk/daqu spirits, and Ive done about up to gen 10 of sour mash Koji bourbon and maybe up to gen 4 of a Nuruk based bourbon, and numerous varieties of Koji)Nuruk whiskeya....they're all totally different and both ASpg sources are pretty amazing. But very very different to each other. I've done a bourbon with a combination of home made/imported daqu also and again, amazing, but different again to Koji and Nuruk. Koji has great umami, and a sweetness to it, which coupled with corn can be a lot, but also some great eatery bits. Nuruk is flat out funk and fruit. Daqu can have fruit but also a deep earthy vibe, which if you're had baijiu you'd recognise.

What I *can* say from having made so much and gone way down the rabbit hole than I ever thought I would and no idea if a time else ever has (please reach out!) is that YLAY is a very very poor substitute. It's like the turbo yeast of the Aspergillus family. Sure great for making a neutral, but YLAY will always leave a weird off flavour at the back of the palette, and the fruit is a muted rottenish fruity flavour, not the vibrant one I get from other sources.

Anyways, I wrote a shochu guide that's posted around here somewhere, always revising it and getting feedback but it has a lot of info on my Koji based processes

My kind of guy thank you your the first person to see things how I do. Now see I didn’t buy my Nuruk I made mines whole year process and on the third one. I agree Nuruk is fast but I have it mix with dry sakè kazu to replenish inventory. Now with the ylay garbage koji and bread yeast does a better job.

Now I’ve koji a lot of stuff!! Looking for a experiment now.

[jonnys_spirit]

Any interesting sources for purchasing spores?

Cheers,
j