Air for agitation

Any hardware used for mashing, fermenting or aging.

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Tōtōchtin
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Air for agitation

Post by Tōtōchtin »

I am curious why no one mentions using pressureized air to agitate a thick grain. The added internal pressure would be easy to mitigate, so I can't see that as the problem. Nor using one way valves, so what am I missing?
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by greggn »

Tōtōchtin wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:49 am
I am curious why no one mentions using pressureized air to agitate a thick grain.

Contamination by introducing far more bacteria than would be encountered via ambient air. Also wild yeast. Unless you're using a highly-filtered medical grade source then the problem is cost.
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Tōtōchtin »

Thanks for your reply. If it would induce more bacteria or wild yeast I would think the rum heads would be doing it. If it is a problem a good filter over the intake would solve that. I have a dive master in the family so I was thinking about using an old tank and putting a solenoid valve on a timer.
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by NZChris »

I put an aquarium pump in the head space in the fermenter to agitate with the ferment’s own CO2,
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Tōtōchtin »

NZChris I was thinking about using it for making rye whiskey. Never had made any but from what I read I am going to need more then an aquarium air pump to get this type of grain moving around. Pero I don't have any hands on experience to back up my ideas yet. Not seeing it at a distillery leads me to believe I am barking up the wrong tree.
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by NZChris »

I stir the grain bed once a day for the first few days using an SS paddle.

I don't know that stirring it constantly would make much difference but, if you wanted to do that with a large air pump, blowing air through it would be a great way to make a large batch of Malt Vinegar.
Use CO2.
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Tōtōchtin »

NZChris wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:07 pm I stir the grain bed once a day for the first few days using an SS paddle.

I don't know that stirring it constantly would make much difference but, if you wanted to do that with a large air pump, blowing air through it would be a great way to make a large batch of Malt Vinegar.
Use CO2.
Now that time a has past a bit and I've learned a couple of things,well at least one thing. I see now by your co2 comment you're thinking about fermentation. I was thinking about pumping air into the boiler to move that rye mash around so not to burn on the element. Now I see that is being done with steam that is the direction I'll be heading.
I want to thank you and all the others who have put up with all my questions. The delay in getting parts was a very good thing. I've gone plan A to plan V.A.32.003. I feel like a government contractor with all my cost over runs.
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Tōtōchtin »

I saw last night Alan Bishop had the same idea about using air to agitate the mash in a boiler. Alan and his crime partner used a submarine style boiler and ran a really thick rye made with no scorching problems.
He must have taken such an original idea from my post.
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Air from an air compressor can introduce oil. People who spray coatings for instance often wear a full face mask with air supplied from an air compressor, but they use a special filter. You wouldn't believe how nasty those filters get after a while. They get disgusting.

I imagine using compressed air to agitate a mash would make a horrible mess. Lots of splatter.
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Tōtōchtin »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 9:43 am Air from an air compressor can introduce oil. People who spray coatings for instance often wear a full face mask with air supplied from an air compressor, but they use a special filter. You wouldn't believe how nasty those filters get after a while. They get disgusting.

I imagine using compressed air to agitate a mash would make a horrible mess. Lots of splatter.
Or you could buy an oil less compressor which could also be used to pull a vacuum/pressure on a barrel with spirits. I wanted to use this idea to run grains in a boiler. Mine has a top so no mess. Google his still on tube.


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Re: Air for agitation

Post by NZChris »

Pumping Oxygen into a fuel rich boiler sounds like buying a ticket for a holiday in the Burns Unit.
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Tōtōchtin »

Air is actually a low percent of oxygen. How many stills have you heard about blowing up running a bad still and a piss poor tender? Sorry but so little gas is being used you could hook it up to a Nitrogen bottle. I am making 2 steam boilers for my rye, but I see this as a feasible sys if you like corn and rye whiskey.
I have ran extractors using highly more volatile agents then ethenol pumping in high pressure air into the tubes and then pulling a good vacuum.
The only ignition source is under a bunch of water and low grade ethenol. I guess you could ignite a bubble that could rise to the surface and ignite something. I would worry about the electric fuel pump in your gas tank that was assembled by some 3 grade level Chinese guy.
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by NZChris »

One of the reasons you don't hear about stills blowing up is because the O2 has been driven out by the vapor. You are suggesting adding it back, which would mean that you have fuel and O2 in the boiler and exiting the condenser. Get the fuel/air ratios right and there is a possibility that an external ignition source could flash back into the boiler.
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Wildcats »

Wait for it....
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Northsouth »

Something to study, perhaps.. It turns a bit caboomy..
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Bradster68 »

My cement mixer on a drill makes my mash a frothy aerated bubbly sensation for the yeast.🤣. Takes 5 min
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by elbono »

Northsouth wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:12 pm It turns a bit caboomy..
I think that's spelled with a K.
16983653832350.jpg
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Tōtōchtin »

I came back to this because I thought someone might think I'm not safety minded. Not so. My family thinks I'm a crazy adrenaline junkie.Im still here because I plan well and use good equipment.

But if he is worried about what little time he uses the air he can just crack a bottle of tasteless inert gas. That would stop that worry. What's the difference having the top off stirring the mash while running gas.
He plans on fermenting a corn mash in his still then distill it then drain it out of a large valve. If you like grains there's some good ideas there.
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Just turn off the video once he starts selling his ideas.
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by NZChris »

Tōtōchtin wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 6:09 pm What's the difference having the top off stirring the mash while running gas.
The vessel is open and cannot contain the pressure needed for an explosion, so if it did get ignited it would go 'woof', not bang, and the fire could be put out by throwing a wet cloth over it.
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Tōtōchtin »

I agree but that woof will cause you to be the next burning man. Put a bottle of inert gas feeding the the intake of the compressor would solve your worries. Did you look at the man's still? It's a guy you said can't be a good distiller with all that shiny equipment behind him. I thought that was a narrow view but that's one thing I like about your posts
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by NZChris »

Tōtōchtin wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:31 am I agree but that woof will cause you to be the next burning man.
It would just be a flame in a still, enough give you a fright and teach you a lesson, it's not going to spray you with boiling liquid, which is what has put self-appointed Master Distillers and their workers into Burns Units. There are two threads about still explosions that I know of, look them up, it wasn't fire that burnt the distillers.
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I've always liked the idea of making like a magnetic stir plate for inside of a boiler. Something similar to what is shown on this page used for creating artificial wave motion in aquariums. Would have to be stainless, brass or copper inside the boiler. Magnetically secured through the boiler so it would be easily removable. It would probably be cheaper to just install a small prop through the wall of the boiler and just leave it.

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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Northsouth »

elbono wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:11 pm
Northsouth wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:12 pm It turns a bit caboomy..
I think that's spelled with a K.
16983653832350.jpg
:lol: my bad
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Re: Air for agitation

Post by The Baker »

It's too late to worry about the spelling after it goes BOOM!

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Re: Air for agitation

Post by Tōtōchtin »

Well the inert gas takes care of that,cheap bottle of co2. As for new ideas some people didn't want to sail past the horizon because they feared falling over the edge or being locked up for saying the earth is not the center of the universe.
Some ideas take more time to develop for some.
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