Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

We don’t condone the use of Continuous Stripping stills as a method of running 24/7 as this is a commercial setup only .
Home distillers should never leave any still run unattended and Continuous strippers should not be operated for longer periods than a Batch stripping session would typically be run to minimise operator fatigue..

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Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by Yummyrum »

This is a half baked idea thats been swimming around my head for a few years now .
It’s based on the preheater idea .
So basically its three boilers each with their own element or gas burner .
Each boiler has a preheater coil in it which is feed from the Boiler next to it . ( its like a worm in a flake stand where the flake is full of wash )
As almost all the condensing is done by the pre heating the next Boiler of Beer /wash , the only cooling water needed is towards the end of each strip .

So you start by filling all boilers .
Turn on the element in the first boiler . It will start producing and vapour will preheat the next boiler full as it condenses . Towards the end of this strip , the product will probably no longer be condensing due to the second boiler being too hot .At this point the Auxiliary condenser can be switched on .( Coolant could be switched on as the temp of the distillate reaches a certain point )

When the First Boiler is stripped , its element is turned off and the Second boiler element is turned on . The water to the Auxiliary condenser can be switched off again .
Now , the first boiler can be emptied and refilled while the second boiler is stripping .

The process continues with the third boiler .

Advantages : huge saving on cooling water and time .When compared to traditional continuous strippers , no special feed pumps or tall plated column required .
Dissadvantages : A lot of equipment required .Operator needs to be on the ball to switch in/out the Beer/waste and elements .( although there is potential for a lot of automation )

Note : the smaller the boilers , the quicker the initial strip will be ( due to having to heat the first boiler full from cold ) but the more often each boiler will need to be emptied and refilled .
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by Dancing4dan »

Just for a second…. I thought that said semi- conscious! :shock: Which took this in a whole different direction!

I think I get what you are suggesting, Semi- continuous. Using wash as a condenser coolant and at the same time pre heating the next boiler in line? In areas where water and energy are a concern this idea could save on both.

Number your drawing in order of your process to make it easier to visualize.

Edited to clarify.
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by Yummyrum »

Thanks D4D
Hope this makes a bit more sense .
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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Yummyrum wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 4:49 pm Thanks D4D
Hope this makes a bit more sense .

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Hey Yummy. That’s what I thought you were talking.

To bad we are so far apart. I have some surplus kegs and material and really enjoy the fabrication experiment side of things
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by NZChris »

Having one condenser for more than one vessel can get confusing when you have differing abvs coming out of the vessels. I keep my two separate and have automated both so that I don't have to fiddle with the water flows due to the constantly changing cooling demands.

I have roughly drawn up a design that overflows each vessel into the next and the main boiler to the drain. The idea was to automate the filling of the last vessel with a PID to maintain the boiling point of the main boiler at a desired temperature to get the Low Wines abv I want. I suspect it might not work the way I envisioned it would.

My current, two vessel setup, could be described as semi-continuous, is easy to run, easy to take foreshots, and works so well for any sized ferment I throw at it, that I'll never get around to building my multiple vessel idea to find out if it is practical, or how to run it.
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by MooseMan »

Yummyrum wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:07 pm This is a half baked idea thats been swimming around my head for a few years now .
It’s based on the preheater idea .
So basically its three boilers each with their own element or gas burner .
Each boiler has a preheater coil in it which is feed from the Boiler next to it . ( its like a worm in a flake stand where the flake is full of wash )
As almost all the condensing is done by the pre heating the next Boiler of Beer /wash , the only cooling water needed is towards the end of each strip .

So you start by filling all boilers .
Turn on the element in the first boiler . It will start producing and vapour will preheat the next boiler full as it condenses . Towards the end of this strip , the product will probably no longer be condensing due to the second boiler being too hot .At this point the Auxiliary condenser can be switched on .( Coolant could be switched on as the temp of the distillate reaches a certain point )

When the First Boiler is stripped , its element is turned off and the Second boiler element is turned on . The water to the Auxiliary condenser can be switched off again .
Now , the first boiler can be emptied and refilled while the second boiler is stripping .

The process continues with the third boiler .

Advantages : huge saving on cooling water and time .When compared to traditional continuous strippers , no special feed pumps or tall plated column required .
Dissadvantages : A lot of equipment required .Operator needs to be on the ball to switch in/out the Beer/waste and elements .( although there is potential for a lot of automation )

Note : the smaller the boilers , the quicker the initial strip will be ( due to having to heat the first boiler full from cold ) but the more often each boiler will need to be emptied and refilled .
IMG_7998.jpeg
I love the simplicity of this design Yummy.

Yes it could be automated to whatever extent you are willing, but that adds complexity, cost.

This could work with almost any sized boilers, from little pots to huge tanks, and I wish I was clever enough to calculate this but I have an idea to potentially further it a little.
If you could deliberately size the second and third vessels, (Or just the charge volumes) so that the energy required to heat them is as closely matched to the previous vessel's heat (Energy) output, you could have a really well balanced system that needs barely any fiddling once underway, as one would come to completion as the other is just kicking off.

I have had thoughts in this direction myself since reading the words "Preheater" by Chris so many times, in fact I did a double strip yesterday using my wort chiller as a preheater for the next strip, but this is the simplest and seemingly most approachable design for a legit preheated continuous system I've seen so far.
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by NZChris »

Dancing4dan wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:08 pm I have some surplus kegs and material and really enjoy the fabrication experiment side of things
To provide enough wash to keep a keg scaled version fed would be well beyond the capabilities of a home distiller.

My design was based on using vessels of around 2-3l. Even at that size, I would have to be a busy fermenter and a big drinker to keep it supplied with wash, make a run worthwhile, and deal with the volume of end products.

Also, you have to take into account the start up and shutdown procedures, which wouldn't be a big deal for a commercial operator wanting to run 24/7, but might be if you are a home distiller and want to have some of your weekend free for other activities.
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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MooseMan wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 10:09 pm
If you could deliberately size the second and third vessels, (Or just the charge volumes) so that the energy required to heat them is as closely matched to the previous vessel's heat (Energy) output, you could have a really well balanced system that needs barely any fiddling once underway, as one would come to completion as the other is just kicking off.
I guess that could work Moose if just using three boiler charges only :thumbup: , but the idea is to keep rotating 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3 etc
So after the first boiler heats up , it's all the same time per boiler . Maybe not optimal but repeatable .

Like Chris was saying , three 15 gal Kegs would be too big ....well unless you had an IBC full of wash to strip :D

I think using much smaller boilers like 2-3gal would be more practical . It might only take 10-15 minutes depending on the element or gas fire size to get the first Boiler producing , after that its one after another . :thumbup:....well thats the theory :think:
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by NZChris »

I suspect that you would have to have experience with running a simple preheater before having a good chance of successfully designing equipment and protocols to take the idea to the next level.
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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I think it was Saltystaves preheater build . He had a condenser on the top of his pre heater that he could take off foreshots . That shows me that the next charge is well and truely nearly on line before the last one has finished
.

One could get all fancy and add a three way valve to each boiler to divert these foreshots if required . But it adds to cost and complexity and operator mind on the job .

I’d just remove foreshots with the heads on a spirit run
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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NZChris wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:29 am I suspect that you would have to have experience with running a simple preheater before having a good chance of successfully designing equipment and protocols to take the idea to the next level.
Perhaps Chris . I’d agree I’m not as experienced as you in this process , but I have done a few experiments that is for sure ….. otherwise I would not be thinking like this .
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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Yummyrum wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:33 am I think it was Saltystaves preheater build . He had a condenser on the top of his pre heater that he could take off foreshots . That shows me that the next charge is well and truely nearly on line before the last one has finished
That depends on the abv of the charge, the temperature of the wash, the ambient temperature and air speed, and the insulation on the preheater. My runs range from zero foreshots, to a bit more than enough.
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by tommysb »

I've just spend a lot of time stripping something like 800L of wash in a 50L still and used a simple coil in the next bucket as a preheater for the next batch. It was a lot of strips and a lot of time, so I was also thinking about ways to make it more efficient! I also came up with the idea of using 3 vessels (one boiling, two for preheating) after noting that on the runs, the water leaving the coil in the (single) preheater bucket was really quite warm (hot?) by the end of the run, and so would be carrying wasted energy down the drain, rather than into preheating (more) wash. So adding another container/preheater would hopefully recapture even more energy and make things even more efficient. I think the idea also comes from the three chamber still which has been discussed on here in other threads (See Leopold Brothers 3 chamber still).


My thoughts - I guess one of the ideas in Yummy's proposed setup is to minimise water use? Although it's more efficient to use the vapour to preheat directly (e.g. vapour->wash rather than vapour->condensor water->wash in some way it seems more complicated and possibly error prone to have an extra condensor which is switched on at some point.

I can also see a potential undesired behaviour at the point that the wash alone is no longer adequately condensing the vapour - as the vapour path seems to have a few branches in it, before it reaches the product condensor. So unless these were switchable with taps, we could end up with vapour going to places we don't want, rather than just to the product condensor.

If you have the space - one solution would just be to gravity feed from one vessel to another as per my terrible drawing. The difference here beint that we are transferring heat energy into preheaters using water rather than vapour.
IMG_20230525_102152.jpg
This way, the process is always the same. Boil in the boiler - drain. (I forgot to draw the boiler tap)
Open tap from preheater1 to boiler, to refill boiler with warm wash.
Open tap from preheater2 to preheater1 to refill preheater1 with a bit less warm wash.
Refill fresh wash into preheater2.

Of course you could also use pumps to transfer liquid as we are just handling wash.
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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NZChris wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:53 am
Yummyrum wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:33 am I think it was Saltystaves preheater build . He had a condenser on the top of his pre heater that he could take off foreshots . That shows me that the next charge is well and truely nearly on line before the last one has finished
That depends on the abv of the charge, the temperature of the wash, the ambient temperature and air speed, and the insulation on the preheater. My runs range from zero foreshots, to a bit more than enough.
I agree entirely that those variables would have an impact .
Which is why I think the Auxiliary Condenser is essential as it was with a true continuous stripper . . It is not always needed but for the most part essential . It is a buffer to cope with the variations you mention .

You mentioned earlier on about your concerns about having one condenser to handle all three boilers .

But , at any time only one boiler is being fired . It’s vapour is mostly condensed by the wash in the next boiler . And when that wash gets hot enough , there may be fores starting to come over as well . I don’t see how having one common auxiliary condenser that is shared can be a problem .
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by Dougmatt »

One day I will have time to build a new rig. This is a similar setup to what I was thinking as well. I was thinking about sizing and thought the boiler sizes should drop over the course of the run. Don’t guess that’s required, but would seem more energy efficient on heat up.

I was also thinking about the condensing / preheat coils needing flow control of some kind.

Another thought I was having was on the feed lines. I want to come straight off the fermenters if possible so trying to figure out best way to minimize particulate matter getting into boiler.

I was also thinking pressure relief would be a good idea on each boiler as I keep coming back to clogging concerns, but that might be mitigated by channel sizing of course.

Sorry for the random thoughts, but this is what occurred to me as I compared what you (yummy) are thinking to what was in my (far less experienced) head.

What’s your thinking for cycle initiation heat up and placement? Internal electric?
I just read an article about the dangers of drinking that scared the crap out of me.

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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by Chauncey »

It's basically a double chartenais/preheater still

I like it. If I could put like a 250 gallon tote to ferment in/feed with above it. Strip like 50+ gallons low wines in a few sessions, keeping the kegs well Insulated so they stay nice and warm while I sleep in between...

Then I can make myself a huge aging supply of my favorite standard recipes and spend the rest of my time exploring paths to new favorite recipes.

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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by NZChris »

I reckon that the worm should enter the preheating vessel as low as possible.

Heat rises, so if you build using your drawing, the preheaters will probably start producing while the bottoms of the vessels are still quite cold. I've watched this happen with another distiller' s first attempt at a preheater build.
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by Yummyrum »

tommysb wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:40 am If you have the space - one solution would just be to gravity feed from one vessel to another as per my terrible drawing. The difference here beint that we are transferring heat energy into preheaters using water rather than vapour.IMG_20230525_102152.jpg
This way, the process is always the same. Boil in the boiler - drain. (I forgot to draw the boiler tap)
Open tap from preheater1 to boiler, to refill boiler with warm wash.
Open tap from preheater2 to preheater1 to refill preheater1 with a bit less warm wash.
Refill fresh wash into preheater2.

Of course you could also use pumps to transfer liquid as we are just handling wash.
Thanks tommysb
You system is a great way to recover the heat from the coolant water . The problem is with this layout and the traditional charental style preheater is the wasted time to drain and refill .

My idea is that there is never wasted time . The moment a boiler is depleted of alcohol , simply switch that element off and switch the next one on and as that next charge is already near boiling it will start producing .

As soon as the next element is switched on , you dump the previous boiler and refill it …..no wasted time .This was the reason for three boilers . One is always being drained and refilled while the other two are being used to produce .

I hope this diagram helps explain . Also if you think of the kegs in a circle instead if in a line , it may make more sense as a continuous operation . As you can see , with six valves and 3 elements , one could have some fun building a controller .
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by SaltyStaves »

NZChris wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:53 am
Yummyrum wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:33 am I think it was Saltystaves preheater build . He had a condenser on the top of his pre heater that he could take off foreshots . That shows me that the next charge is well and truely nearly on line before the last one has finished
That depends on the abv of the charge, the temperature of the wash, the ambient temperature and air speed, and the insulation on the preheater. My runs range from zero foreshots, to a bit more than enough.
Can confirm all of what Chris is saying here. Lots of variation with different washes.

One thing I'll point out is that you will need a linear decline on your worm(s) to avoid pooling. This is much more difficult to do over three vessels. If the vessels are all the same level and close to each other, the entry point on the first vessel will need to be sufficiently high enough to allow for the downward slope. Spacing them out solves that issue, but efficiency would be lost with the additional distance from one vessel to the next.

Staggering the vessel height would be the best way to keep them close together, but knowing how much of a challenge I had doing just one vessel, I'd hate to have to tackle doing that for three in a row.
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by NZChris »

It takes me 7-8 minutes from power off to power on to dump and refill the main boiler. If I needed to speed that up, I could install larger plumbing plus bucket the hot waste out to the garden weeds after turning the heat on instead of during the draining.
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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[quote=SaltyStaves post_id=7753592 time=1685058127 user_id=57221]

One thing I'll point out is that you will need a linear decline on your worm(s) to avoid pooling. This is much more difficult to do over three vessels. If the vessels are all the same level and close to each other, the entry point on the first vessel will need to be sufficiently high enough to allow for the downward slope. Spacing them out solves that issue, but efficiency would be lost with the additional distance from one vessel to the next.

[/quote]

Salty ,each vessel is its own boiler and preheater/ condenser from the boiler next door .

Yes there will be a linear decline on each coil/worm .

I think you are misinterpreting what I am doing . I do not intend to have the worms cascading from one to the next .
Each worm is its own individual condenser . Only one worm is operating at a time . Eventually that flake full of wash get too hot to condense the vapour from the boiler feeding it . At that point , I would use the rising temp of the distillate to turn on water to the Auxiliary PC to provide the necessary condensing while the charge in the boiler is finally being depleted of alcohol .
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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Yummyrum wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:13 pm Each worm is its own individual condenser . Only one worm is operating at a time
Ah, I see. :thumbup:
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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Yummyrum wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:13 pm Eventually that flake full of wash get too hot to condense the vapour from the boiler feeding it . At that point , I would use the rising temp of the distillate to turn on water to the Auxiliary PC to provide the necessary condensing while the charge in the boiler is finally being depleted of alcohol .
I think you would only be saving on the recharge time unless you used that heat to preheat the charge in the third vessel.

If I used the excess heat from the distillate to preheat the next charge before it went into the preheater, I would get a lot more distillate from the preheater before putting it in the main boiler. Each run run would be different and quicker, until some kind of equilibrium was reached.
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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Dougmatt wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:51 am One day I will have time to build a new rig. This is a similar setup to what I was thinking as well. I was thinking about sizing and thought the boiler sizes should drop over the course of the run. Don’t guess that’s required, but would seem more energy efficient on heat up.
Thanks Doug
I was intending for tis to operate over many cycles between boilers .Yes initial boiler will take longest to come on line , but after that they would all take the same amount of time .
Dougmatt wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:51 am I was also thinking about the condensing / preheat coils needing flow control of some kind.
Shouldn't need to .They either get vapour from the boiler preceeding them or not
Dougmatt wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:51 am I was also thinking pressure relief would be a good idea on each boiler as I keep coming back to clogging concerns, but that might be mitigated by channel sizing of course.
yes definitely thinking 3/4" minimum for the coils
Dougmatt wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:51 am What’s your thinking for cycle initiation heat up and placement? Internal electric?
It would be easiest to have an element in each which can be switched on off but no reason a gas burner under each with a pilot light and solenoid operated gas flow if one wanted to get all fancy :eugeek:
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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NZChris wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:01 pm
Yummyrum wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:13 pm Eventually that flake full of wash get too hot to condense the vapour from the boiler feeding it . At that point , I would use the rising temp of the distillate to turn on water to the Auxiliary PC to provide the necessary condensing while the charge in the boiler is finally being depleted of alcohol .
I think you would only be saving on the recharge time unless you used that heat to preheat the charge in the third vessel.

If I used the excess heat from the distillate to preheat the next charge before it went into the preheater, I would get a lot more distillate from the preheater before putting it in the main boiler. Each run run would be different and quicker, until some kind of equilibrium was reached.
I think I see what you are saying Chris .It's not a perfect system .
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by Chauncey »

So what I'm gonna need you to do is go ahead and build a prototype and test it out.

😂
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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Chauncey wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:56 pm So what I'm gonna need you to do is go ahead and build a prototype and test it out.

😂
LOL already been searching for 3 Stainless Pots and lids Chauncey .
It’s damn well got me .
Gotta slowly sneak it i to the budget so as not to raise too much suspicion , but working on it :shh:
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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I only need one more pot and a pump that will handle hot wash.
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

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Yummyrum wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:17 am
Chauncey wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:56 pm So what I'm gonna need you to do is go ahead and build a prototype and test it out.

😂
LOL already been searching for 3 Stainless Pots and lids Chauncey .
It’s damn well got me .
Gotta slowly sneak it i to the budget so as not to raise too much suspicion , but working on it :shh:
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Re: Yummy's Semi-continuous stripper idea

Post by Yummyrum »

Well as usual , the Devil is in the detail , and in this case its the cost .
First off I looked at 6 manual valves , three for filling , three for drains . I wouldn’t want to go smaller than 3/4” , but in Staino , they add up and then one has to be operating valves all day.
So I looked at Solenoid operated valves , but these all seem to need a minimum pressure to operate correctly which then lead me to motorised Ball valves . These seem like the best option , but then , for the cheapest I could find and freight was over $300 AUD for 6 motorised ball valves .

Now if you are going to fill each boiler , it makes sense to have a float switch to stop the fill . Add 3 more float switches . Theres another $50 .

So now how to heat it . Gas or Electric .
3 elements is going to cost me between $250-500 depending on wattage . Then I’ll need 3x SSR80DAs or 3x Contactors to switch between elements .

Or gas . Three gas burners , three gas pilots , three solenoid controlled gas valves . Again , depending on brand , a similar cost to Electric .


Then there were the three boilers . I was thinking around the 15 -20 litre mark . Could use kegs , cut the tops off them to fit the coils and weld them back up or get three big stock pots with staino lids and again solder the tops closed once the coils were fitted .
Three 50 litre kegs could be found for around $100-150
But 20litre stock pots were heaps dearer .

So by the time I’ve made controllers and glues it all together , I’d be seeing no change out of $1000 .

I’m re thinking it :ewink:
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