Soldering cxc elbows to ferrules

[Tōtōchtin]

Made a bad mistake getting cxc rather then cxs elbows. Tomorrow I am starting to soldering these together. Since I am glueing 3 pieces together that are made from 2 different materials I see a problem. Just wanted to check in and see if I am stumbling in the right direction. I plan on soldering the copper sleeve inside the elbow then the soldering the ss ferrule by applying heat mainly to the ferrule. Or is this ass backwards?
Thank you for your time,
Tōtō

[Yummyrum]

Buggered if I know what a cxs elbow is Toto.
If CxC means Copper to Copper perhaps its Copper to Stainless……. but I have never seen such a thing , at least in Australia .

Anyway , soldering a Stainless ferrule to a Copper coupling is very doable . Even if you need to use a sleeve.

Regarding soldering .Copper will spread heat about 20x faster than stainless .
If you put the flame onto the Stainless like you were suggesting , you will cook the Ferrule before any heat makes it to the copper .
Once you have cooked the stainless, you’ll have to pull it all apart and clean it spotlessly before attempting soldering again .

Always apply the heat to the copper predominantly and let it transfer the heat to the stainless .

Use liquid flux , not paste and keep applying it with a Hog bristle brush .

[zed255]

In plumbing the C is coupling, that is fits over the OD of pipe and the S is street, indicating the same OD as pipe.

[Sporacle]

I work on the copper, like Yummy.
I go very slowly until the solder just run and then maybe a quick lick onto the SS.
You will bead it and blacken the SS at some stage, just clean it and restart.
Patience is the key, think about heating slowly and then go slower

[Yummyrum]

In plumbing the C is coupling, that is fits over the OD of pipe and the S is street, indicating the same OD as pipe.

Thanks zed
Sounds like a US term .

[elbono]

I would do it all at once. Clean and flux all the parts, ferrule, sleeve and elbow then assemble. I make the sleeve a little longer than it needs to be so there's 1/8" or so visible when it's all assembled.

If you haven't soldered stainless/copper joints before prepare to learn (expect to do it more than once). Loose joints are a challenge, if you need to make a shim so it's tight. If you have simpler ss/cu joints to do learn on them first.

Go slow with the heat. I heat the ferrule a little all the way around on the flat side then the copper about an inch from the end. Wait several seconds every so often to let the heat soak in. Repeat until the flux starts boiling, then let the heat soak a bit. More flux won't hurt but will cool the joint. Apply more heat slowly while testing the joint temp with solder. Never apply flame directly to the place you'll put the solder or you'll burn the flux.

When the solder starts melting remove the flame and heat will soak in and get everything hot enough to melt the solder while you apply it.

And Bob's your uncle!

[OtisT]

This may be wrong, but I heat up for soldering copper to stainless differently than what Yummy said. If you apply heat to the copper to heat your stainless the copper can get way too hot.

Stainless is slow to take and hold the heat, so I start by heating the stainless first, doing that heat up very slow and even. To heat my stainless slowly I will apply the flame then remove the torch flame periodically to let the heat applied to the stainless spread evenly. If you heat the ferrule too fast and/or unevenly, it could warp the face of your ferrule leading to leak issues.

Get the stainless hot but just below solder temp before starting to heat the copper. Then heat both the copper and stainless up to solder temp together. That copper will come up to temp very quickly compared to the stainless.

Posted in parallel with others.

[elbono]

In plumbing the C is coupling, that is fits over the OD of pipe and the S is street, indicating the same OD as pipe.

Thanks zed
Sounds like a US term .

In the US a lot of fittings are called CxFtg (cup x fitting) which means one end will go over the pipe the other is the same size as the pipe (a cup will fit over it).

Elbows are special snowflakes, CxFtg elbows are usually called a street elbow. I can't figure out why but apparently it makes life easier when turning towards a residence from the street.

[Saltbush Bill]

This may be wrong, but I heat up for soldering copper to stainless differently than what Yummy said. If you apply heat to the copper to heat your stainless the copper can get way too hot.
Stainless is slow to take and hold the heat, so I start by heating the stainless first,

I'm with you on this one Otis, Ive always heated the stainless first and let it wick to the copper, I found that doing it the other way the copper gets to hot for the solder to stick and or/ the copper gets so hot that it burns the flux more easily, Ive never bothered to go at it all that slowly, just got stuck into getting the staino hot.
I think the truth is that there is more than one way , you have to find what suits you, you will get a heap of opinions on what is right.
Having said that Ive never tried to use what we term "soft solder" here in AU to join copper to stainless, Ive always used high silver content "hard solder".

[elbono]

This may be wrong, but I heat up for soldering copper to stainless differently than what Yummy said. If you apply heat to the copper to heat your stainless the copper can get way too hot.
Stainless is slow to take and hold the heat, so I start by heating the stainless first,

I think the truth is that there is more than one way , you have to find what suits you, you will get a heap of opinions on what is right.
Having said that Ive never tried to use what we term "soft solder" here in AU to join copper to stainless, Ive always used high silver content "hard solder".

What is your definition of hard solder? In the US we call brazing rods something with over 15% silver and solder something less than 6%

Is that the same in Australia?

It is definitely a matter of what works for you. Get everything hot enough but nothing too hot YMMV...

[metalsmith]

For me I always use 45 or 50 % silver and the appropriate flux, but I billed it to the client too. Made copper to stainless very easy.

[juana_b]

Here is a pdf from Harris that shows some different flavors, and temps.

Filler Metal Selection Chart .pdf

(457.01 KiB) Downloaded 94 times

[Tōtōchtin]

I have their liquid flux and solder. I was just guessing about heat transfer of the SS and 2 layers of the copper. Just need to do it. T.

[Saltbush Bill]

What is your definition of hard solder? In the US we call brazing rods something with over 15% silver and solder something less than 6%

Hope fully this link will work for you , https://www.google.com.au/search?q=lead ... nt=gws-wiz pictures at the top of what we call soft solder, comes in roles, low melting point temp.
Hard solder comes in rod form , has varying solder content , silver % is your choice......melts at a much higher Temp than soft.
Its sometimes useful to use both types when doing something like a deflegmator or two joins close together, use the "high melt point " hard solder first, the next join with soft soft solder......no chance of the other join comming apart.
acfixer is the solder expert , he might comment at some stage.

EDIT: added link that was forgotten

[acfixer69]

I've been following this thread from the start and watching where it goes. I started soldering in the 50's 60's with my dad and he used the terms hard and soft soldering. Some time in the 70's in the academia it was clarified solder is done at temps around 600 degrees F and brazing is around 1200 F. The silver content in solder will varies from none to maybe 6% and melt at a low 600 F . Brazing is the same silver varies from none to 56% in common use. The name Hard solder has been weened out of the teaching you are going to either solder or braze. Melting point of the filler is the difference. Silver % will determine temp.

[juana_b]

Thanks for chiming in ac. When I was an apprentice I always welcomed an old dog's take on the approach to bonding dissimilar metals in different circumstances. The pdf I posted can be found on the Harris website with more info.
Bottom line: Until you do it repeatedly, you won't get a feel for it. Much like running a still. And in this case you won't have any place for a thermometer. Perseverance furthers. BTW, you will f it up. The feel for it is acquired by practice, and cannot be replaced by reading or watching tutorials.

[Swedish Pride]

If you are using normal led free plumbing solder, some liquid Harris flux and heating the copper will be the ticket.

Ive never been playing with hard solder so can't help there

[Tōtōchtin]

I thank you all for your advice. I used to work on Yachats and did electrical and refrigeration. Pero that was 30 years ago. I guess I was just thinking out loud plus I hate cleaning up my mistakes. It's just the thickness of the wrot elbows and 2 type m, makes me think the ss will be the sink.
T

[CoogeeBoy]

Toto,
Go for a 2% silver solder rod if you are going to solder copper to stainless steel.
The soft lead free solder will simply pull away from the ferrule when it cools.
Whilst I have seen some say they have been able to use the soft solder effectively, I am 51% certain that all it is doing is filling the gap but not bonding at all to the stainless leaving structural weakness that will leak eventually.
Silver solder is a lot harder and will bond to both the copper and stainless.
Make sure you use the right flux, the bakers is good for soft solder but the harris flux paste is better for silver solder.
Also, you are going to need a lot of oxygen. The small containers you get at the hardware shop are bloody expensive and dont last long enough.
Go to your local BOC Gas and get a 4 cubic metre bottle of gas, it will last you a good long time and is way way cheaper.

So endeth the lesson.

[Saltbush Bill]

IMO and experience the higher the silver content the easier it is to use......2% is about as low as you can go.....2% will be cheap though.

[acfixer69]

Toto,
Go for a 2% silver solder rod if you are going to solder copper to stainless steel.
You are talking about silver BRAZING not soldering
The soft lead free solder will simply pull away from the ferrule when it cools.
Now you are talking about 95/5 soldering not use with dissimilar metals.
Whilst I have seen some say they have been able to use the soft solder effectively, I am 51% certain that all it is doing is filling the gap but not bonding at all to the stainless leaving structural weakness that will leak eventually.
Using the proper flux will etch a strong bond way stronger then we require (Stay clean flux with stay brite 8 solder)
Silver solder is a lot harder and will bond to both the copper and stainless.
Make sure you use the right flux, the bakers is good for soft solder but the harris flux paste is better for silver solder.
Also, you are going to need a lot of oxygen. The small containers you get at the hardware shop are bloody expensive and dont last long enough.
Go to your local BOC Gas and get a 4 cubic metre bottle of gas, it will last you a good long time and is way way cheaper.

So endeth the lesson.

[Yummyrum]

Coogee , beg to differ about the strength of a soft soldered. SS Ferule to Copper .
That 2” Ferule at the base of my still was soldered to my Flute still around 8years ago and is quite happy supporting all that above it in this pic . It’s been used on many kegs and even with a 2m packed 4” full of rock on numerous occasions over the last few years .

With the right flux and heat , Lead free soft solder is very strong .

Incidentally , I never used that setup . Obviously the boiler charge would be too small for that .

[Wildcats]

this is what you want to use.
Have fun and stay safe.

[CoogeeBoy]

IMO and experience the higher the silver content the easier it is to use......2% is about as low as you can go.....2% will be cheap though.

I wondered about that, I had hell with 5% silver solder but I think it was because it was 3mm, I now use the 2mm 2% silver solder like so

https://www.bunnings.com.au/consolidate ... lsrc=aw.ds

[Tōtōchtin]

Again I thank you,it was mothers day down here so I have yet to start. I do have Harris's products( liquid flux and 8%) so I'm good to go there. I now have zilch for tools down here. At the family ranch I left my tools and they walked away on their own. What I have is 2 5lb propane tanks with propane torches. My only saving grace is I drug a friend down with me whose a glass blower so he has played with torches a lot. We will just need to work as a team on the keg ferrules and maybe the 3 inch. With the amount of heat I can put to the job I don't think I want to try brazing. I really appreciate the help and interest.
Tōtō

[Tōtōchtin]

Ok I have tried soldering in all 3 pieces at the same time and soldering the copper sleeve,then the ferrule. I test my fitting with dish soap and water then using the exhaust on my vac to pressure tests the joints. Chasing my tail fixing the leaks. I have yet to try soldering the ferrule to the sleeve then that to the tee. I thought I would ask the hive for any cheap tricks while I clean up my mess.
Tōtō

[Wildcats]

Ok I had/have a 2" copper tee that I soldered copper ferrules on all three openings of the tee. I had to cut a piece of 2" pipe to make the ferrules fit. I made sure all the inside and out was very clean. Then fluxed all and assemble all the parts. Then I applied heat to the center of the tee. No flame ever touched the flanges/ferrules. I was able to solder all three of them at once. With no leaks. If it's not clean or if you burn the flux.. then the solder won't do what it's supposed to. Doing it this way worked for me. That's 6 solder joints... two per side of the tee. Hope this helps. It might be possible to do it differently. But if it were me... I'd solder all of em at once. Good luck man. Have fun and stay safe.

[Sporacle]

Toto, can you post a picture of the exact things that you are using to solder with?
Flux, torch and filler.
It might help, I've got an idea of what's wrong but without knowing exactly what your using I don't want to provide the wrong info

[Tōtōchtin]

I hope this works for you, I had to relearn how to resize my photo.
I should add I used Oatey H-20 tinning flux on the copper to copper.

[Yummyrum]

Ok I had/have a 2" copper tee that I soldered copper ferrules on all three openings of the tee. I had to cut a piece of 2" pipe to make the ferrules fit. I made sure all the inside and out was very clean. Then fluxed all and assemble all the parts. Then I applied heat to the center of the tee. No flame ever touched the flanges/ferrules. I was able to solder all three of them at once. With no leaks. If it's not clean or if you burn the flux.. then the solder won't do what it's supposed to. Doing it this way worked for me. That's 6 solder joints... two per side of the tee. Hope this helps. It might be possible to do it differently. But if it were me... I'd solder all of em at once. Good luck man. Have fun and stay safe.

Glad you have 100% success doing it that way too .
I was starting to question what I had posted earlier as everyone else did the opposite LOL .