Higher abv for botanical maceration?

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SouthwestAl
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Higher abv for botanical maceration?

Post by SouthwestAl »

I am doing some tests on using a higher abv for maceration of botanicals, before proofing down ahead of distilling. The idea is to use the higher abv/proof GNS to extract 'more' of the good bits, over a 72 hour period. Juniper, for example, really benefits from a higher abv, as do most citrus oils, but I am thinking some of the roots & peppers might also benefit from it. I am not macerating the more delicate herbal and floral notes in the botanicals bill, as they will go in the vapour path, so am not worried about reducing them into a nasty vegetal mulch.

Anyone have any conclusions over the pros/cons of this approach?
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TwoSheds
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Re: Higher abv for botanical maceration?

Post by TwoSheds »

I, and many others, use a variation on the OEG method but start with 60% ABV. I get good extraction at 1 day, great at 2, too much and undesirable flavors at three.

As you mention, dilute before running to 40% or below, but that's another variable... I run at 40 and find I get less of the vegetal flavors I'm not fond of (though aging also helps reduce them.) Many distill at 30.

Play around with it and see what you like. Try to stick to one variable at a time and remember, if it louches or comes out too strong you can always dilute it down with neutrals.
SouthwestAl
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Re: Higher abv for botanical maceration?

Post by SouthwestAl »

TwoSheds wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:52 am I, and many others, use a variation on the OEG method but start with 60% ABV. I get good extraction at 1 day, great at 2, too much and undesirable flavors at three.

As you mention, dilute before running to 40% or below, but that's another variable... I run at 40 and find I get less of the vegetal flavors I'm not fond of (though aging also helps reduce them.) Many distill at 30.

Play around with it and see what you like. Try to stick to one variable at a time and remember, if it louches or comes out too strong you can always dilute it down with neutrals.
Many thanks - I am going to give it a test at 24 and 48 hours. As you say, leaving it too long may just make it unnecasserilly bitter.
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TwoSheds
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Re: Higher abv for botanical maceration?

Post by TwoSheds »

For what it's worth I do my limoncello right up at 93-95% (whatever I have for neutrals.) I experimented with different timing and found 5 days about right.

That's not redistilled, of course, but as you'll find others will tell you, each botanical would have a sweet-spot of ABV, infusion ABV, and distillation ABV. You could do each individually to find it if you want to get real serious.

Enjoy!
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Re: Higher abv for botanical maceration?

Post by Dunkydonuts »

There’s a really interesting thread about this by Alchemist, I don’t know if you have found it yet but I think that thread had a lot more room for discussion, so I’m following this question with interest.

viewtopic.php?t=67771

Myself I’m tending to macerate at 80% and mainly varying the times that certain botanicals are added to the pot which seems to work so far. I still have a lot to learn though and it also gets really scientific trying to figure out the specific voc breakdown of each botanical.

It would be really handy to get people to chip in with what they have found out for each botanical.
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Re: Higher abv for botanical maceration?

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TwoSheds wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:52 am I, and many others, use a variation on the OEG method but start with 60% ABV. I get good extraction at 1 day, great at 2, too much and undesirable flavors at three.
Where are the botanicals when you do the run?
SouthwestAl
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Re: Higher abv for botanical maceration?

Post by SouthwestAl »

TwoSheds wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:59 am For what it's worth I do my limoncello right up at 93-95% (whatever I have for neutrals.) I experimented with different timing and found 5 days about right.

That's not redistilled, of course, but as you'll find others will tell you, each botanical would have a sweet-spot of ABV, infusion ABV, and distillation ABV. You could do each individually to find it if you want to get real serious.

Enjoy!
I generally distill new botanicals on their own to see how the final distillate is, and where the parts I want appear, but confess I have done little testing with maceration. I did test with different length of time, and settled on 72 hours at 48% for my main two recipes, and also did some tests with infusing the botanicals that are more volatile in hot water, which I dismissed as not really worth the extra work. These botanicals were placed in a pot of hot water (about 95C, so simmering point) and then left to steep, and this water was then used to dilute a higher abv maceration down to distilling abv.

For the test I started this week, I macerated at 63.3% abv, and my initial reaction is that the Juniper really benefited. That said, this was a multi-shot test with a 1:5 ratio, so the abv was more determined by me wanting to distill 1 litre of concentrated maceration - 0.5L GNS at 95%, 250ml of water, and then another 250ml of water added before distilling. So, it was slightly harder to evaluate the effectiveness of the GNS as a solvent at higher abv, due to the weight of Juniper being x5 what it would 'normally' be, and I was using two different types of Juniper including a Brazilian Juniper that is quite rare, alongside some nice oily German Juniper. Juniper like Lemon Peel, really does need higher abv, so I can see an approach where certain elements are macerated at higher abv for a period, before reducing down and adding in the botanicals that might go bad at higher abv, before distilling. It's definitely an area that needs some more exploration, and I may start macerating my Juniper on its own, at 95% abv, and using that for the base of my macerations, to which other botanicals are added.
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Re: Higher abv for botanical maceration?

Post by redz242 »

It depends on what your macerating and how much botanicals or such even high proof I call it burn your botanicals and Bring more harshness.

My opinion:
High proof for mixture of nuts mostly dry, high oil content, and mixture of moist dry botanicals. Which not just a single moist botanical or you’ll definitely extract more oils and bitter component’s because of the full spectrum extract you’ll be collecting full spectrum extract.

Mid range like 70-75% is a good extraction range for various I tent to get a 3/4 spectrum extract. Also character from the 25% water bitter sweet point.

Lowest proof 55-65% is to me a flavoring component because the you have so much water the alcohol only gone extract little characteristics and a lot of flavor.

You don’t necessarily need high proof to extract oils just a good method which can be faster and like the old timers say quality products. if fast and high proof your thing get a butter maker or tincture machine sacrifice a quart macerate for a day and then add it to the machine to make a tincture. which will lower your proof but also give you the extract and you can play with the maceration level by you looking for 4-8 hours usually be the time.
I usually go to 11 hours which gives me a full spectrum extract with flavor. The sweet thing is you can use the botanicals in your sight glass, thumper, or such for what I call tea extraction which adds more complexity. Now however it’s my secret to a deeper tasting Brandie’s I do it all the time for absinthe and for my base when making gin.
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Re: Higher abv for botanical maceration?

Post by B_Stilling »

SouthwestAl wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:34 am The idea is to use the higher abv/proof GNS to extract 'more' of the good bits, over a 72 hour period.
I think it depends what you define as 'good bits'. When it comes to whisky pulling flavor out of the wood some compounds solve better in water and some solve better in alcohol. Thats why different entry abv's matter.

I have no idea where the desireable gin compounds fall on that scale, but I myself macerate for 24 hours at 50% abv and distill on the botanicals (I do take out the citrus peel). Works for me. The only time I could see myself change my regimen is when upping the dose of a certain botanical doesnt get me enough flavor. Then it might be worth dropping that botanical in earlier or macerate that specific botanical at a higher or lower abv.
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Re: Higher abv for botanical maceration?

Post by NormandieStill »

I second Alchemist's thread as source reading. There's another one which prompted that thread (Facts on infusion).

I would recommend anyone interested in the subject read both threads from start to finish at least once. Not only are many of your questions answered, but so are a bunch of questions you don't yet know you had!

There are often nuggets of knowledge buried in random threads on this forum but the sheer brain dump of data in those two threads makes them stand out. I tend to reread them once every 3-6 months to see what else I missed.
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Re: Higher abv for botanical maceration?

Post by redz242 »

NormandieStill wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:01 am I second Alchemist's thread as source reading. There's another one which prompted that thread (Facts on infusion).

I would recommend anyone interested in the subject read both threads from start to finish at least once. Not only are many of your questions answered, but so are a bunch of questions you don't yet know you had!

There are often nuggets of knowledge buried in random threads on this forum but the sheer brain dump of data in those two threads makes them stand out. I tend to reread them once every 3-6 months to see what else I missed.
+1 the thread he showing is what walk me into this forum I was a apprentice alchemist.
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