upgrading still question

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cryptic
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upgrading still question

Post by cryptic »

Hi everyone,

I am currently using a 13 gallon still with a 2" copper reflux column that is ~1 m in height. I have it packed with copper mesh. I am primarily interested in making vodka. However, my run time for this set up is about 6-8 hours. Lately I have been considering upgrading to a larger set up to produce more, better quality vodka.

In your opinion, would a 4" copper column (6 bubble plates) and a 26 gallon base be more efficient than the 2" packed reflux column? I realize the volume is doubled, and the column is plate vs packed copper - but if all things were equal would a wider column help with reducing the run time or at least produce a similar amount in the same time?

I can seem to find information on the efficiency of the column widths used, (although I suspect there must be some) or whether 6 bubble plates would be more effective than a packed column.

Any insights would be helpful, as I am trying to figure out if upgrading is worth the effort and $.

Thanks,

Paul
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by greggn »

cryptic wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:16 am
I can seem to find information on the efficiency of the column widths used,
In general, a wider diameter can be run faster whereas a taller column will attain a higher %ABV. Efficiency is a more complicated discussion.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by werkkrew »

If you are primarily interested in making vodka / neutral it is very likely 6 plates will not be nearly enough and I think the common wisdom is that you would need upwards of 20 plates to make a true neutral. A packed column is the only way we in the hobby can hope to hit azeo.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Twisted Brick »

Paul,

A packed column adhering to a 20-24:1 ratio (height to diameter) provides the most bang for the buck. If you increased the height of your column you can run faster, but in going over this ratio diminishing returns happen.

The larger the column diameter, the more volume you can put through it, but most hobbyists don't have the height to accommodate a 3" or 4" column at this ratio, not to mention the expense of building it.

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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Setsumi »

Do you run strips and then spirit?
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Deplorable »

A picture of the reflux column could be helpful. Not all reflux columns are created equally.
A proper 2" CCVM, with copper mesh packing is capable of neutral at about 1L/hr from a charge of clean low wines.
I have 40" of copper packing under the take off T and have no problem pulling 94% at 950ml/hr from diluted feints from my AG whiskey runs.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Salt Must Flow »

If you were to upgrade to a 3" packed column 5' tall then you could produce at least 3 lph during hearts.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Siva283 »

I run a 4 inch 4 plate column. I have no problem hitting azep running at almost a gallon an hour. However it is most definitly not a nuetral. Now if I water it down to %40 and run it again it gets pretty nuetral. And the second run I can run even faster
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Siva283 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:01 am I run a 4 inch 4 plate column. I have no problem hitting azep running at almost a gallon an hour.
If you can get azeo running a 4 plate column at 3+ LPH you either need to buy a new and more accurate alcometer, or need to learn about temperature correction.
Siva283 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:01 am However it is most definitly not a nuetral.
Running at that speed I'm not surprised.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by acfixer69 »

A gallon an hour on a 4 plate 4 " is not possible for drinkable liquor. Tails will push thru every time.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Yummyrum »

I’ll third that Siva283.

If you want higher than 2/3 gal/hr you might want to build yourself a 6” …..alternatively , you might want to get yourself a taste for tails iff’n thats the rate you want to pull off a 4” . :ewink:

But getting back to the OP
A packed column still in the 20:1 ratio ( thats 40”
Tall on a 2”) is roughly equivalent to about 20 plates

So 6 plate still is going to give you far from the same quality spirit

The most effective way is to scale the 2” up .
4” at 20:1 is a whopping 80” tall ….. over 6’ , plus the height of the boiler and the reflux head .It ends up being quite the tall bugger needing a ladder to reach the valves .
IMG_8058.jpeg
IMG_8059.jpeg
IMG_8057.jpeg
And while it might seem like a great way to get 4x as much product in the same amount time , it needs 4x as much gas and 4x as much coolant water . If you are using a tank to recycle water . It will quickly heat up to useless temp unless its bigger that about 2000-3000 litres .

A 3” is a much more realistic size .
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Bushman »

I agree with the comments made. I run a 4” x 50” column with packing. One of the reasons commercial stills run plates is the diameter of their column. What I have read and believe is any tall column with 6” or larger diameter column requires plates as the weight would compress mesh. But my experience is 4” or smaller mesh packing works great.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Siva283 »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:09 pm
Siva283 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:01 am I run a 4 inch 4 plate column. I have no problem hitting azep running at almost a gallon an hour.
If you can get azeo running a 4 plate column at 3+ LPH you either need to buy a new and more accurate alcometer, or need to learn about temperature correction.
Siva283 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:01 am However it is most definitly not a nuetral.
Running at that speed I'm not surprised.
Understood you dont beleive it. No problem you dont have to. Lucky for me I am the only one that needs to drink what I make. Funnily enough I remember the long thread on flutes and at the beginning many didnt believe it was possible but low and behold several people did it. Turns out it just takes more heat and also more water through the defleg.
My hydrometer is just fine all of them I keep several since I have a habit of dropping them as well as my refractometer. Everything was thought as impossible till it was done.
But I get it you know alot but you also think you know everything and are infallible. There are people like you in every community. You dont have the skills knowledge or ability to do it so you think no ones does.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Siva283 »

acfixer69 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:19 pm A gallon an hour on a 4 plate 4 " is not possible for drinkable liquor. Tails will push thru every time.
Negative ghostrider just take a look at my other reply. I really dont feel like typing it again.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Siva283 »

Yummyrum wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:40 am I’ll third that Siva283.

If you want higher than 2/3 gal/hr you might want to build yourself a 6” …..alternatively , you might want to get yourself a taste for tails iff’n thats the rate you want to pull off a 4” . :ewink:

But getting back to the OP
A packed column still in the 20:1 ratio ( thats 40”
Tall on a 2”) is roughly equivalent to about 20 plates

So 6 plate still is going to give you far from the same quality spirit

The most effective way is to scale the 2” up .
4” at 20:1 is a whopping 80” tall ….. over 6’ , plus the height of the boiler and the reflux head .It ends up being quite the tall bugger needing a ladder to reach the valves .
IMG_8058.jpegIMG_8059.jpegIMG_8057.jpeg

And while it might seem like a great way to get 4x as much product in the same amount time , it needs 4x as much gas and 4x as much coolant water . If you are using a tank to recycle water . It will quickly heat up to useless temp unless its bigger that about 2000-3000 litres .

A 3” is a much more realistic size .
Actually l like pretty heavy tails. However they can be knocked off if you like and still hit almost a gallon an hour. The exact would be roughly 3.0 - 3.4ish liters an hour.
Yall do you I will do me. But you really shouldnt make claims as fact when they are in fact not fact and cant be proven. All your doing is trying to make the fact that you cant do it not sound so bad.
If I ran a 15 gallon boiler I would not be able to. But I run a 30 gallon thats wide with alot of surface area on the top which helps significantly. I dont use a keg. There is more than one way to skin a cat if you think outside the box. But making caims with no details and only your assumptions only makes yourself look bad.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by bunny »

Siva283 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:00 am
But I run a 30 gallon thats wide with alot of surface area on the top which helps significantly.

Could you please explain what and how this helps significantly?

Are you saying using a short 1/4 barrel for a boiler is better than using a tall 1/4 barrel?

Help me understand.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by OtisT »

Wow! Nice job burning those bridges Siva. Complete destruction.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Twisted Brick »

Yummyrum wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:40 am
A packed column still in the 20:1 ratio ( thats 40”
Tall on a 2”) is roughly equivalent to about 20 plates

A 3” is a much more realistic size .
I agree a 3" is more manageable. My 3" has 60" of packing, and with my burner stand, keg and RC plumbing out the top totals 122", or 10'. I have to be careful cause I can only run outside and have neighbors on 2 sides.

With column packing, I've always thought that HETP is closer to 4". Have I got it wrong all this time?
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by bunny »

Twisted Brick wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:31 pm
Yummyrum wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:40 am
A packed column still in the 20:1 ratio ( thats 40”
Tall on a 2”) is roughly equivalent to about 20 plates

A 3” is a much more realistic size .
I agree a 3" is more manageable. My 3" has 60" of packing, and with my burner stand, keg and RC plumbing out the top totals 122", or 10'. I have to be careful cause I can only run outside and have neighbors on 2 sides.

With column packing, I've always thought that HETP is closer to 4". Have I got it wrong all this time?

No, you haven't got it wrong.

Properly manipulated and packed scrubbies give an HETP extremely close to 4".

It doesn't seem to matter much on the diameter of the column.

Scrubbies HETP pretty much remain the same whether it's a 2" or 4" column.

The old rules of thumb just happen to coincide with 2" columns.

However they do not relate to 4" columns.

The height of the column only relates to the HETP of the packing, so a 60" x 2" column has 15 plates using scrubbies as does a 60" x 4"

column also have 15 plates.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Yummyrum »

I would have thought that too .But I could never get the same purity on 4” as I could on 2” until I doubled the height .

It makes no sense to me .HETP as mentioned should be doing the same job regardless of diameter so long as power is scaled to fill the packing to the same amount . But in practice this does not seem to be what happens .
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by bunny »

Yummyrum wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:18 pm I would have thought that too .But I could never get the same purity on 4” as I could on 2” until I doubled the height .

It makes no sense to me .HETP as mentioned should be doing the same job regardless of diameter so long as power is scaled to fill the packing to the same amount . But in practice this does not seem to be what happens .


Scrubbies are notoriously difficult to pack consistently with repeatable numbers.

Could you please tell us more about the packing in the 40" column with 20 plates. That's an HETP of 2"?

For me, I have found manu's spp to be very consistent in HETP in both 1" and 2" columns with no special effort during packing.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Saltbush Bill »

bunny wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:30 am
Siva283 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:00 am
But I run a 30 gallon thats wide with alot of surface area on the top which helps significantly.

Could you please explain what and how this helps significantly?

Are you saying using a short 1/4 barrel for a boiler is better than using a tall 1/4 barrel?

Help me understand.
I doubt that you will get an adequate answer there Bunny.
The subject of surface area and boiler shape has been discussed more than once on more than one forum, finding the links to those discussions isn't always easy. You can thank Yummy for this one, he dug it out for me.
viewtopic.php?p=7339915#p7339915
Dont miss the link posted by Tater on page 3 that takes you to more on the subject.........both are worth reading from end to end.....you can make up your own mind on what you think is right.
Sorry about the off topic folks but thought this question needed addressing.
Edit : another Link ..... https://www.hydrocarbononline.com/doc/b ... ily-b-0001 from the same posts
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by acfixer69 »

Surface area won't change to silvas point. It's plain physics energy in will equal energy out, pressure/temp/vapor speed will balance.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by shadylane »

cryptic wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:16 am

I am currently using a 13 gallon still with a 2" copper reflux column that is ~1 m in height. I have it packed with copper mesh. I am primarily interested in making vodka.

In your opinion, would a 4" copper column (6 bubble plates) and a 26 gallon base be more efficient than the 2" packed reflux column?
A 6 plate column is the wrong tool for making Vodka.
Especially for one run and done.
A 3" packed column is a good match for your 13 gal pot.
Make the column as tall as the ceiling allows.
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Re: upgrading still question

Post by Siva283 »

OtisT wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:58 am Wow! Nice job burning those bridges Siva. Complete destruction.
Yes because I totally want bridges with people that think something cant be done because they do it. Yet I see it with my own eyes many many times
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