Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

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realestwhiteboy
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Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by realestwhiteboy »

Me and my distilling partner are finishing up our first keg build, and wiring up our control box is going to be the final step. Based off the recommendation of someone else, we went with 2 elements in the pot (one near the bottom, only closer to the middle). Our local Lowes only had 1 element in stainless steel (all others were nickel-plated), so this is what both elements are: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Utilitech-Wate ... nt/3693210
I feel like those 2 elements are probably overkill together on a 15.5-gal keg, but they were the only 2 stocked.

Neither of us are electricians & we tend to be more cautious, so wanted to make sure we were being save with the wiring.

Our initial plan was to wire both elements to a control box with an SCR on one and a toggle switch on the other. I have a have 240v dryer outlet that the control box would be plugged to. As we are finalizing the design & about to start buying parts, I open my breaker box ... that dryer outlet is on a 30-amp breaker. This build started at my old house, which had an outlet on a 60-amp we planned to use.

I only really see 2 options:
1) Put in a 60-amp breaker & rewire that outlet larger wire that supports the 60-amp

2) Only put the bottom element through the control box, which should be fine on the 30-amp breaker. Wire the 2nd element to plug into the 110v/20-amp outlet nearby, then I can plug/unplug as required for heat up.

Since 240v/5500w is the only element carried by the stores near me in stainless steel, wiring to 110v isn't ideal. I realize that will drop it's potential down to 1375w, but am I overlooking anything as far as safety? Is there any other options I'm missing?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by still_stirrin »

I have two 4.5kW (240VAC rated) elements in my keg boiler. I have them EACH powered with a triac control circuit powered by 120VAC. They each are run from separate 20 amp breakered household circuits. Each element draws nearly 9.8 amps at 1175 watts when fully on (slight power loss to the control circuitry and wiring). Both elements are mounted as low as possible in the boiler to minimize the required liquid to keep them submerged throughout the run. You never want to risk “dry firing” an element in your boiler.

The two elements will bring a 12 gallon (8 to 10% wash) charge to production in about 90-100 minutes. And when in full reflux production, the 2200 watts is about perfect for my 2” x 40” tall marble packed column, enough to produce 94% ABV products. With two ultra low watt density (ULWD) elements powered like this, I can heat a “dirty wash” with less likelihood of scorching it, the advantage of using 2 elements vs a single element powered with 240VAC.

So, using a 5.5kW 240VAC element on 120VAC will give you 1325 watts (ideally). Two of those on a single circuit would draw more than 22.9 amps, closer to 25 amps. If you power one element with 240VAC, it’ll draw that same current, 22.9 to 25 amps. So, you’ll need a 30 amp circuit to power a single element with 240VAC, or two elements with 120VAC.

If you planning to mix power sources, 120VAC and 240VAC, then I’d suggest regulating the 240VAC source. And use it to power the bottom heat element. If you’re planning to switch the 120VAC supply to the other element, then be sure it is rated for full circuit power (plus a 20% safety margin).
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realestwhiteboy
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by realestwhiteboy »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:19 am I have two 4.5kW (240VAC rated) elements in my keg boiler. I have them EACH powered with a triac control circuit powered by 120VAC. They each are run from separate 20 amp breakered household circuits. Each element draws nearly 9.8 amps at 1175 watts when fully on (slight power loss to the control circuitry and wiring). Both elements are mounted as low as possible in the boiler to minimize the required liquid to keep them submerged throughout the run. You never want to risk “dry firing” an element in your boiler.

The two elements will bring a 12 gallon (8 to 10% wash) charge to production in about 90-100 minutes. And when in full reflux production, the 2200 watts is about perfect for my 2” x 40” tall marble packed column, enough to produce 94% ABV products. With two ultra low watt density (ULWD) elements powered like this, I can heat a “dirty wash” with less likelihood of scorching it, the advantage of using 2 elements vs a single element powered with 240VAC.

So, using a 5.5kW 240VAC element on 120VAC will give you 1325 watts (ideally). Two of those on a single circuit would draw more than 22.9 amps, closer to 25 amps. If you power one element with 240VAC, it’ll draw that same current, 22.9 to 25 amps. So, you’ll need a 30 amp circuit to power a single element with 240VAC, or two elements with 120VAC.

If you planning to mix power sources, 120VAC and 240VAC, then I’d suggest regulating the 240VAC source. And use it to power the bottom heat element. If you’re planning to switch the 120VAC supply to the other element, then be sure it is rated for full circuit power (plus a 20% safety margin).
ss
Yea, I think we are leaning towards the mixed power sources: 240vac SCR-regulated on the bottom element, 120vac wired to simply plugin into an outlet on a 20-amp breaker on the top element.

When running on 2 separate breakers, do you ground both elements to the keg separately? I assume you can't be too grounded, so I was planning to run a ground wire from each element to the keg.
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by kennstminet »

I suggest adding a real safety power off switch in addition to your SSR switch.
The SSR may fail and provide full power, not reacting anymore to your little switch.
You will use that safety power off only in case of a malfunction. So a 30 Amp circuitbreaker (like in your breaker box) should be cheap enough. You surely will find a way to mount it to your toolbox.
realestwhiteboy
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by realestwhiteboy »

kennstminet wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:39 am I suggest adding a real safety power off switch in addition to your SSR switch.
The SSR may fail and provide full power, not reacting anymore to your little switch.
You will use that safety power off only in case of a malfunction. So a 30 Amp circuitbreaker (like in your breaker box) should be cheap enough. You surely will find a way to mount it to your toolbox.
I had bought this 30-amp switch from Lowes for that purpose: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Eaton-Double-P ... 1002944114

But I also have an old 30-amp breaker that I saved from a previous upgrade to the house. Would there be an advantage to one over the other, or they're basically serving the same purpose and I could've saved my $20? :lol:
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by kennstminet »

A switch is designed to operate frequently.
A circuit breaker is designed to interrupt a line only in rare cases and shall not be used as a switch.
In your case, the little switch works for the frequent and would allow to to use the circuitbreaker in case of problems.
However, you already own a real switch. I would use it to turn off the mains. No need for the circuit breaker then.
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by still_stirrin »

I agree with Kenn, you don’t want to use a (panel) circuit breaker for “power on/power off” utility. It will wear the mechanism and could cause arcing to “weld” the contacts. The wrong “tool” for the job.

The paddle switch (rated for 30 amps) is a better choice, but it still will suffer wear from high current loads, like your resistive load will impose. But, it is less expensive than building a relay circuit to switch power in and out.

I chose to put control on both elements so I can turn down the current flow before switching off or on. I also have ammeters on both circuits so I know the amperage (because it relates to power dissipated in the element). Incidentally, the current is a better indicator of vapor production rate any way, better than voltage or power.

For the 240VAC side, a “push to kill” switch would be good to have too. You’re dealing with a lot of energy, so an emergency (safety) switch is a wise investment.
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by elbono »

Your 30a dryer circuit is good for one 5500w element but definitely don't use the breaker as a replacement for a switch, they aren't designed to be used that often.

The switch from Lowes is rated for that much current but I prefer an HVAC compressor contactor controlled by a mushroom head e-stop button. If you turn the controller down before you flip the switch and it will last a long time.though.

The second element on 120v is fine on a normal household 20a circuit as long as it's the only thing running. Most US 120v receptacles are actually 15a but that load is fine on 15a even with all the derating factors.

The only time I run my 5500w element anywhere close to full blast is when I am heating water for a mash, it takes less than an hour to get 14 gallons to a rolling boil, that's enough for me. I would return one element and put a stainless plug in the hole. If you decide you need more power you can always put one in and deal with the extra complexity and cord to trip over.

The last thing to think about is the dryer receptacle, they aren't designed to be plugged/unplugged often. It will last a good while but when it gets easy to plug/unplug it's worn out. I use twist locks on anything that's going to get unplugged more than a time or two a year.

Lastly, if you decide you need 11 kw of heat two 30a circuits will probably be a better choice than one 60a circuit.
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by shadylane »

realestwhiteboy wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:21 am

I only really see 2 options:
1) Put in a 60-amp breaker & rewire that outlet larger wire that supports the 60-amp
You could even use a 50 amp circuit.
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by HDNB »

my 0.02 is use the big power to supply 2 scr with an element on each.

one feed is shut off...when it's shut off. if you have a 2nd feed, did you remember to shut it off when servicing? What i mean is with 2 feeds, there is potential for Murphy to enforce his law,
i'd use the one feed on 2 scr in parallel if one fails during a run, you still have the other. same goes for elements on individual circuits. additionally this will allow for any combination of power.
use the two 4k ohm pots in series to give fine control on the scr too. i only have one on mine and it's a fussy little bitch.

2x 5000w on 240 vac is going to max at 42amps, so 60 amp cct breaker on #6 copper would be fine on the feed. you could get away with #8 and still have required 20% headroom, but #6 looks so much fatter. :-)
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by shadylane »

@ realestwhiteboy

Two 5,500w elements is overkill.
I'd recommend 4kw or 4.5kw elements.
Don't worry about what's available at the nearest box store.
Get what you need from amazon.
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by Stonecutter »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:47 am I agree with Kenn, you don’t want to use a (panel) circuit breaker for “power on/power off” utility. It will wear the mechanism and could cause arcing to “weld” the contacts. The wrong “tool” for the job.

The paddle switch (rated for 30 amps) is a better choice, but it still will suffer wear from high current loads, like your resistive load will impose. But, it is less expensive than building a relay circuit to switch power in and out.

I chose to put control on both elements so I can turn down the current flow before switching off or on. I also have ammeters on both circuits so I know the amperage (because it relates to power dissipated in the element). Incidentally, the current is a better indicator of vapor production rate any way, better than voltage or power.

For the 240VAC side, a “push to kill” switch would be good to have too. You’re dealing with a lot of energy, so an emergency (safety) switch is a wise investment.
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by NZChris »

I've always used two circuits for peace of mind. That has never let me down.

One controlled, one switched. Depending on what I'm making, sometimes with a latched relay to turn off one of the elements at a set temperature.
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by Wildcats »

My stance one electric is it's better to be safe that sorry. If that makes sense. So if it were me... It run it on two different breakers. Have fun and stay safe
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I'd pull a 60A circuit and a control box with variable wattage on each element. The SCR's are cheap and easy so why not?

May want to engineer some 110V element hookups too because who knows - you may end up with a smaller boiler for gin or whatever and pre-wiring it all would be convenient..

Master current meter on the 60A would be nice to monitor how much total current the system is drawing.

Less is more or more is more?

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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by still_stirrin »

When you price breakers, cable, and connectors, you’ll get your answer. 50 amp twist lock connectors are big and expensive. And the SOOW wiring to feed it is too. But, if you’re going to set a 50 or 60 amp breaker, be sure your panel wiring will support it as well.

A 30 amp 240VAC breaker is easier to buy and wire. Two of them would be easier to integrate than a 50 or 60 amp circuit. Remember, that’s a LOT of energy, so plan wisely.
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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

60A @ 240V is like 144 x 100W light bulbs, ten or twelve kettle water heaters, or a couple big-a$$ speakers that the neighbors would definitely complain about.

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Re: Does 2 Elements Require 2 outlets?

Post by zach »

realestwhiteboy wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:21 am but am I overlooking anything as far as safety? Is there any other options I'm missing?
No one has mentioned GFCI circuit breakers for the 240 v circuits. You may be able to replace the existing breaker in your panel or install a new "hot tub" panel for a protection that uses an existing range or dryer circuit.

I would not consider this an option, but essential.
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