Slowing down the angel share on a small barrel

[Evil_Dark]

I've made a HBB aged on a 5L barrel, and after 8 months sitting on this small barrel i've lost like 80% in angel share as these small barrels are breathing like crazy...
Now I want to age a second whisky in this barrel, I wonder if I wrap its circumference with saran wrap, letting its two side uncovered, would it slow down the angel share and won't compromise it's content?
The two ends should continue the "breathing effect", reducing he angel share? Sure I'm supposing that it should age a bit (or significantly?) slower...
What do you think? Is it a bad idea?

[MonkeyRumKing]

I have a 1 Liter barrel I got as a gift and in 73 days I lost 330 ML. Way too much. If getting a 20L barrel isn't an option for ya, I would consider breaking down that barrel, storing your spirit in a glass jar and add the staves to age your product. If the outside of the barrel was varnished, you'd obviously want to sand that off. Those barrels are nice looking, but the staves are too thin and we give up too much product that way. Also, if possible, that glass jar should have a cork top. Another option, is look into buying or building a BadMo barrel. Google Bad Motivator Barrels and you'll find it. I was going to add a link, but I think that's frowned upon. It may be faster to build that barrel. Ben has created great instructions for doing so. I believe they're expanding the operation, but that may take longer because Ben, the founder, past away recently. RIP Ben. In any case, the only thing that has stopped me from making one of these is I can't find white oak and the wife just got me a 20L barrel for our 20th anniversary. Good luck!

[Swedish Pride]

Get better barrels, 80 % loss is nuts.

I've a 5l one, never measured the loss but would guess it's about 20%

[Saltbush Bill]

I'm with SP there.....80% in 3 months is a lot.... something is wrong not just angels drinking.

[Stonecutter]

80%
I have only used 5L barrels and age in year increments. 80% is unfathomable. Something is wrong ED

[Evil_Dark]

I'm with SP there.....80% in 3 months is a lot.... something is wrong not just angels drinking.

8 eight months, not 3 lol

[Evil_Dark]

Is my math is okay?
I started at 5L, now 1L left
Took 50ml samples evey month, let say 0.5L of samples taken off on the entire 8 months.
Staves are 7/8" thick.
Anyway what are you thinking of wrapping the contour of the barrel? I don't think that it may ruin the spirit... And would seal a bit more that barrel?

[Swedish Pride]

Sounds like nice thick staves, might try to wax the outside to slow it down.

Maths seem solid, just shy of 80%
Even 50% would be considered way to much of a loss.

Any chance you have teens with access to the barrel?

[Evil_Dark]

Any chance you have teens with access to the barrel?

LOL! Yeah... but they have access to easier booze than this barrel... House is literally full of multiples kinds of booze, and the teens aren't interested much. And they know that they can have as much as they want... I'm generous as I produce way more than I can drink

[6 Row Joe]

I quit buying small barrels. I sure like the BadMo's.

[Buffalo]

I just emptied my 4-liter barrel after 3 months. I ended up with 1 gallon, 1ea. 750 ML. and 1 350 ML. bottles.

[Buffalo]

So much for proof reading that was a 5 liter barrel.

[The Baker]

I've suggested a couple of times here and there and cannot recall getting a reply...
If that is because it is a bad idea please tell me...

Suppose you put the smallish barrels in a sealed, temperature and humidity controlled chamber?
Say a modified old commercial fridge with glass doors to look nice.
Then it's up to you, right? By way of the atmosphere settings that is. And you could keep records which should be interesting.

Geoff

[Swedish Pride]

A controlled environment is good to compare barrel A against barrel B.
Not sure if it would help with reducing the angels share though?

I might be wrong, won't be the first or last time today

[TwoSheds]

So let's get into it... What contributes to angels share?

1 - hydrating the dry barrel (assuming it's not newly emptied.) This can be gallons in a full-sized barrel. I think I remember a distiller mentioning he loses around 4 gallons in a new 55 gallon bourbon barrel. Smaller barrel, less loss, but probably a bigger percent of the total volume. This is a good reason to top off your newly filled barrels to get maximum aging in them.

2 - leaks. Best identified immediately and avoided.

3 - evaporation of alcohol and water. This would be through the wood and I've read in varying ratio based on ambient humidity. I've heard in dry areas the water evaporates so quickly that the proof can actually rise in a barrel during aging, though I don't think I've seen this studied.

3a - alcohol and water will be forced into the wood by expansion and contraction from temperature changes. This will likely speed up #3, but also is said to speed up the aging process.

What else am I missing?

I would think controlling the environment would help #3, but also may slow the process.

With plastic wrap I would be worried about it holding enough moisture on the outside of the barrel to create a layer of mold. Maybe the outside could be partly waxed?

Just some thoughts.

TwoSheds

[Twisted Brick]

This might help.

Some seem to think wrapping a full barrel in plastic risks inviting mold (on the outside) other, not.

FWIW, I stored my 5gal barrel (protected from the sun/wind) outside in very hot, dry weather for 2yrs, and the proof rose from 62.5 to 65abv. The angel's share loss after 2 long years was most significantly affected by what I call Twisted's Share.

[6 Row Joe]

Here's what a 53 gallon barrel looks like. Your results will vary of course. A 5 litre barrel matures faster than a 53 gallon. One year = 3.44 years in a full sized barrel.
Now, the cheap small barrels I got came from Mexico I believe. The liquid coming out didn't really taste like #3 char American White Oak and even though they didn't leak,there wasn't much left out of the 5 liters I put in (after a year). Mine got emptied or were empty, and have dried up so bad that many of the rings have fallen off. Bad Mo or Oak chips for me.

[Wildcats]

I don't have anything to add... But glad this come up. I've spent the last hour reading all about ageing sprits and small barrel's.

[The Baker]

A controlled environment is good to compare barrel A against barrel B.
Not sure if it would help with reducing the angels share though?

I might be wrong, won't be the first or last time today

Thanks, Swedish Pride.

The angel's share, it seems to be generally agreed, is affected by the environment.
Especially temperature and humidity.

Control the environment and you control the angel's share; and to a certain extent, the aging process.

Yes??

Geoff

[Swedish Pride]

Yeah probably
But in this case the barrel is giving way to much away, so in my mind it's more about addressing what I believe is a leaky/ faulty barrel

If you have barrels that behave, a controlled environment would be great, you can experiment with temps and humidity to get all sorts of results and really dial in your preference

[Goose]

I enthusiastically tried 3 x 5L batches in new oak barrels which were water filled for 48 hours prior to filling. After 6 months I lost more than 40% to the angels though granted I live in a hot and humid climate.

In my view that is too much for the effort involved and have since put down my next batch into glass, though I am now challenged with getting my oak dosage right.

[EricTheRed]

though I am now challenged with getting my oak dosage right.

on one of Badmo's (RIP) threads - he came up with a ratio iirc of 95 cm2 per litre

I've also learned that mixing sticks helps with a more interesting dop!

an equal mix of
* New Toasted Only (3 hrs @ 220°C)
* Used toasted and crocodile char (hey - i live in Africa - we don't have gators )
* New Toasted & Charred
* Used Toasted & Re-charred
Gives me a nice drink

[Goose]

Thanks Eric.

This is significantly less than Jimbo's Scotch whiskey recipe using 5in x 1in x 1in (22 sq in) per quart, which is 150 cm2 per litre by my calcs.

And then the other variables are the kind of wood and its treatment, end grain proportion and ageing proof. Plenty to experiment with it seems....

[NZChris]

Thanks Eric.

This is significantly less than Jimbo's Scotch whiskey recipe using 5in x 1in x 1in (22 sq in) per quart, which is 150 cm2 per litre by my calcs.

And then the other variables are the kind of wood and its treatment, end grain proportion and ageing proof. Plenty to experiment with it seems....

If I have a new batch of wood, or a new toast, I sometimes check it out using ideas borrowed from here. viewtopic.php?t=55301 In a week, I get a good indication of how much to use.

[JustinNZ]

Wow, I use med toast seasoned us oak dominos at the rate of 20g per 2L, and these have a total surface area of 65cm squared (7.2cm x 2.5cm x 1.5cm). I’ve always worried about over-oaking! Sorry, this has gone off-thread. Just love any oaking chat.

[NZChris]

I slow mine down by putting the barrel in the whiskey, in glass, rather than putting the whiskey in expensive small barrels. One day you realize that your cellar has years old product that is very fine and getting better, has lost an acceptable amount to the angels, and it can still remain on the wood until you finally proof the last bottle in several years time.

One option I've never seen tried, is regularly cycling the whiskey/rum through a small barrel. E.g. holding the bulk of new make in glass/SS, but with some of it in a small barrel so that it all gets a turn in the barrel. You could even add some new make when you bottle some, solera style.

[Goose]

Thanks Eric.

This is significantly less than Jimbo's Scotch whiskey recipe using 5in x 1in x 1in (22 sq in) per quart, which is 150 cm2 per litre by my calcs.

And then the other variables are the kind of wood and its treatment, end grain proportion and ageing proof. Plenty to experiment with it seems....

If I have a new batch of wood, or a new toast, I sometimes check it out using ideas borrowed from here. viewtopic.php?t=55301 In a week, I get a good indication of how much to use.

Holy hell that is one helluva thread Chris... probably take me a week to read that though have heard about ultrasonic ageing before. Thanks...

[BFBourbonBuddy]

One method that could be interesting would be coating the outside of the barrel in either beeswax or oak barrel sealing wax. Many of the big producers use this stuff on the bead of the barrel head to ensure a secure, breathable fit. The wax allows for air to penetrate, but should stop most liquid from coming out of the barrel. Thus, you will still get a decent amount of oxidation while stopping that pesky angel share from escaping. I haven't personally attempted this, but it could be intriguing.

[The Baker]

One method that could be interesting would be coating the outside of the barrel in either beeswax or oak barrel sealing wax. Many of the big producers use this stuff on the bead of the barrel head to ensure a secure, breathable fit. The wax allows for air to penetrate, but should stop most liquid from coming out of the barrel. Thus, you will still get a decent amount of oxidation while stopping that pesky angel share from escaping. I haven't personally attempted this, but it could be intriguing.

I would have thought the wax did NOT allow air to penetrate.
Only where it was not, or was poorly applied...

Geoff

[Saltbush Bill]

I'm pretty sure your right Geoff, if its not letting anything out , its unlikely to let anything in either.
I played around with waxing a barrel only a week or two ago, but that was to try to fix a leak.
I used shavings of bees wax and melted it onto / into the wood of the barrel using a heat gun/ paint stripper gun.....what ever you want to call it. It was a fail as far as leak fixing , but I'm pretty sure it would slow down any alcoholic angels if you where to wax 3/4 of the barrel.
I personally wouldn't wax the whole thing.
I did get the leak fixed but using another method all together.