drmiller100 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:40 pm
And your argument is that bottom inch of wash is not being heated like the rest of the wash and is somehow causing smearing. ..
Even with a well designed electric boiler. It takes time for all the wash to get boiling hot.
Until that happens, it's not possible to stack the column with the most volatile vapors, because they haven't had a chance to boil off yet.
Somehow I'm missing something. To me either a pot is boiling or it isn't. If it isn't the column is not heating up. If it is boiling wash is being turned to vapor and the nasties and H2O and etoh are getting boiled off and heating up the column.
And it takes time to boil off all the nasties and load the column.
Are we saw ing the same thing?
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
drmiller100 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:31 am
Somehow I'm missing something. To me either a pot is boiling or it isn't. If it isn't the column is not heating up. If it is boiling wash is being turned to vapor and the nasties and H2O and etoh are getting boiled off and heating up the column.
It isn't! Take a large stockpot of water and put in on a strong burner. I think we can agree that the water is not uniformly rising in temperature, but that there are hotter and cooler parts which mix as a consequence of the convection currents that form in the pot. Near the bottom of the pot, pockets of gas will form as the water is heated and then collapse as they rise to the top of pot giving their heat to the surrounding water. As the average temperature of the water increases, some of those gas bubbles will make it to the surface before giving off all their energy. Now we have vapour that has made it out of the water despite the water not being entirely at it's boiling point. Slowly but surely that vapour is going to heat the lid of the pot and the column.The same laws of physics that prevent us from separating components completely in a pot still will mean that if you let those vapours just escape the top of the still, you are also allowing ethanol and water to escape. The best method (according to physics), to remove the nasties with the lowest BP would be to stack the column completely (assuming that you don't have some kind of vapour low-pass filter which would allow you to selectively condense only high BP vapours).
That's my take on it anyway. If you really want to be sure, then you need to feed an identical wash into your still and test both methods side-by-side to see which gives the larger heads cut (or conversely, the largest hearts cut);
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo
drmiller100 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:31 am
Somehow I'm missing something. To me either a pot is boiling or it isn't. If it isn't the column is not heating up. If it is boiling wash is being turned to vapor and the nasties and H2O and etoh are getting boiled off and heating up the column.
It isn't! Take a large stockpot of water and put in on a strong burner. I think we can agree that the water is not uniformly rising in temperature, but that there are hotter and cooler parts which mix as a consequence of the convection currents that form in the pot. Near the bottom of the pot, pockets of gas will form as the water is heated and then collapse as they rise to the top of pot giving their heat to the surrounding water. As the average temperature of the water increases, some of those gas bubbles will make it to the surface before giving off all their energy. Now we have vapour that has made it out of the water despite the water not being entirely at it's boiling point. Slowly but surely that vapour is going to heat the lid of the pot and the column.The same laws of physics that prevent us from separating components completely in a pot still will mean that if you let those vapours just escape the top of the still, you are also allowing ethanol and water to escape. The best method (according to physics), to remove the nasties with the lowest BP would be to stack the column completely (assuming that you don't have some kind of vapour low-pass filter which would allow you to selectively condense only high BP vapours).
That's my take on it anyway. If you really want to be sure, then you need to feed an identical wash into your still and test both methods side-by-side to see which gives the larger heads cut (or conversely, the largest hearts cut);
I don't care what the temps are in the pot before it is boiling. If it isn't boiling distillation isn't happening. Evaporation is. I don't care about evaporation.
Have you ever run a packed column reflux still?
When the boiler is coming up to temp the column walls are room temp. Once the wash reaches a full boil you can put your hand on the column and feel the heat working it's way up the column.
High up it will be room temp. Down low it will be too hot to touch. Not much confusion.
Once it is boiling the light nasties tend to boil off first and they do collect in the upper ends of the hot part of the column. But it does take some time to get all the light nasties boiled off the wash. And I run my batch stills at full reflux to collect and concentrate the nasties for 5 minutes or so. And once the light nasties are boiled off the wash temp will rise a bit on the order of half a degree.
I don't understand when you say both ways. There are two ways to boil a pot? I only know the way where you apply heat until it comes to a full rolling boil.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
drmiller100 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:31 am
Somehow I'm missing something. To me either a pot is boiling or it isn't. If it isn't the column is not heating up. If it is boiling wash is being turned to vapor and the nasties and H2O and etoh are getting boiled off and heating up the column.
It isn't! Take a large stockpot of water and put in on a strong burner. I think we can agree that the water is not uniformly rising in temperature, but that there are hotter and cooler parts which mix as a consequence of the convection currents that form in the pot. Near the bottom of the pot, pockets of gas will form as the water is heated and then collapse as they rise to the top of pot giving their heat to the surrounding water. As the average temperature of the water increases, some of those gas bubbles will make it to the surface before giving off all their energy. Now we have vapour that has made it out of the water despite the water not being entirely at it's boiling point. Slowly but surely that vapour is going to heat the lid of the pot and the column.The same laws of physics that prevent us from separating components completely in a pot still will mean that if you let those vapours just escape the top of the still, you are also allowing ethanol and water to escape. The best method (according to physics), to remove the nasties with the lowest BP would be to stack the column completely (assuming that you don't have some kind of vapour low-pass filter which would allow you to selectively condense only high BP vapours).
That's my take on it anyway. If you really want to be sure, then you need to feed an identical wash into your still and test both methods side-by-side to see which gives the larger heads cut (or conversely, the largest hearts cut);
I don't care what the temps are in the pot before it is boiling. If it isn't boiling distillation isn't happening. Evaporation is. I don't care about evaporation.
Evaporation is part of distillation. And it is boiling, just not all of it. Which is the whole damn point!
drmiller100 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 7:45 am
Have you ever run a packed column reflux still?
When the boiler is coming up to temp the column walls are room temp. Once the wash reaches a full boil you can put your hand on the column and feel the heat working it's way up the column.
High up it will be room temp. Down low it will be too hot to touch. Not much confusion.
Once it is boiling the light nasties tend to boil off first and they do collect in the upper ends of the hot part of the column. But it does take some time to get all the light nasties boiled off the wash. And I run my batch stills at full reflux to collect and concentrate the nasties for 5 minutes or so. And once the light nasties are boiled off the wash temp will rise a bit on the order of half a degree.
I don't understand when you say both ways. There are two ways to boil a pot? I only know the way where you apply heat until it comes to a full rolling boil.
You were suggesting that nothing happens until the whole contents are boiling. I'm just showing you that this is not the case. The both ways comment was regarding the two different techniques for taking the fores + heads (nasties) off the still. You propose a single dump. Shady suggests letting the column remain in steady state and removing drop by drop. What I was saying is that you can shout as loud as you like about how your method works better, but unless you do a quantitative experiment to see what the difference is in the final yield, you're just shouting an opinion. And there's some pithy comment about the value of opinions! I for one would love to see real numbers showing that using one technique or the other gives an x% increase in yield. But if x < 1, then it's probably going to disappear into the error caused by my non-temperature controlled ferments!
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo
drmiller100 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:31 am
Somehow I'm missing something. To me either a pot is boiling or it isn't. If it isn't the column is not heating up. If it is boiling wash is being turned to vapor and the nasties and H2O and etoh are getting boiled off and heating up the column.
It isn't! Take a large stockpot of water and put in on a strong burner. I think we can agree that the water is not uniformly rising in temperature, but that there are hotter and cooler parts which mix as a consequence of the convection currents that form in the pot. Near the bottom of the pot, pockets of gas will form as the water is heated and then collapse as they rise to the top of pot giving their heat to the surrounding water. As the average temperature of the water increases, some of those gas bubbles will make it to the surface before giving off all their energy. Now we have vapour that has made it out of the water despite the water not being entirely at it's boiling point. Slowly but surely that vapour is going to heat the lid of the pot and the column.The same laws of physics that prevent us from separating components completely in a pot still will mean that if you let those vapours just escape the top of the still, you are also allowing ethanol and water to escape. The best method (according to physics), to remove the nasties with the lowest BP would be to stack the column completely (assuming that you don't have some kind of vapour low-pass filter which would allow you to selectively condense only high BP vapours).
That's my take on it anyway. If you really want to be sure, then you need to feed an identical wash into your still and test both methods side-by-side to see which gives the larger heads cut (or conversely, the largest hearts cut);
I don't care what the temps are in the pot before it is boiling. If it isn't boiling distillation isn't happening. Evaporation is. I don't care about evaporation.
Evaporation is part of distillation. And it is boiling, just not all of it. Which is the whole damn point!
drmiller100 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 7:45 am
Have you ever run a packed column reflux still?
When the boiler is coming up to temp the column walls are room temp. Once the wash reaches a full boil you can put your hand on the column and feel the heat working it's way up the column.
High up it will be room temp. Down low it will be too hot to touch. Not much confusion.
Once it is boiling the light nasties tend to boil off first and they do collect in the upper ends of the hot part of the column. But it does take some time to get all the light nasties boiled off the wash. And I run my batch stills at full reflux to collect and concentrate the nasties for 5 minutes or so. And once the light nasties are boiled off the wash temp will rise a bit on the order of half a degree.
I don't understand when you say both ways. There are two ways to boil a pot? I only know the way where you apply heat until it comes to a full rolling boil.
You were suggesting that nothing happens until the whole contents are boiling. I'm just showing you that this is not the case. The both ways comment was regarding the two different techniques for taking the fores + heads (nasties) off the still. You propose a single dump. Shady suggests letting the column remain in steady state and removing drop by drop. What I was saying is that you can shout as loud as you like about how your method works better, but unless you do a quantitative experiment to see what the difference is in the final yield, you're just shouting an opinion. And there's some pithy comment about the value of opinions! I for one would love to see real numbers showing that using one technique or the other gives an x% increase in yield. But if x < 1, then it's probably going to disappear into the error caused by my non-temperature controlled ferments!
Wow. I won't argue with this. Im done discussing it.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
You gotta love it when great minds don't think alike. I am planning on trying a small dephlegmator on top of my boiler to hold down the vapor during a real slow heat up for rum. Would it work to run ice water through it on a column get my boiler temps as high as it will go then shut down the water flow wait about 10 min for some equilibrium. Then slowly pull off thru a VM. Or would the gas concentration be stacked the same just heating up the boiler the old fashion way.
Tōtō
No fancy tricks are needed.
The fewer adjustments made the better.
Two power changes, one for heat up and the other for running.
Vary the take off rate to control the reflux ratio.
It only takes a couple changes of that from beginning to end.
