Producers Pride

[Zacher]

So I made a mash with 60% PP. Did an acid rest at 106, then a protein rest at 130 and two sac rests at 146 and 155 for 30 minutes each. I ended up with a 33% efficiency. WTF happened?????

[Deplorable]

Producers Pride what exactly? The Sweet Cob?

[Zacher]

Cracked corn. Milled it twice…..

[Zacher]

Sorry if I posted in the wrong thread….

[Swedish Pride]

Corn needs higher temps, give if a few hours at 190 then bring the temps down to sac temps for your malt.

Or buy high temp enzymes

[Deplorable]

Edited to remove content after re-reading.
SP is correct. You need to let that corn rest at least 3 hours in water at least 180 degrees Fahrenheit. Then bring the temps down to sac.

[Zacher]

Would that be for flaked maize versus cracked corn? From what I have read and watched cracked corn goes the other way then flaked as it’s not processed. Please help me out on this!

[Zacher]

Also, with the 6 row and rye my diastatic power was 44 so should have been l plenty to convert.

[Zacher]

I’m thinking I should have stirred it more than just a couple of times.

[Swedish Pride]

If it was flaked you'd have been fine, cracked is a different kettle of fish altogether

[Zacher]

I need the program as I still have 40 more pounds to mash!

[elbono]

This is pretty close to your recipe
viewtopic.php?t=17750

Follow his method and use your malts and you'll get a lot better results. Even better follow the recipe exactly.

[Zacher]

Thank you!!

[elbono]

Tried and true recipes are great.

My guess is if you do your calculations again leaving out the corn you'll see good conversion rates on the malts and little to no conversion on the corn.

It's real easy to scorch cooking nchooch's way but you'll get good gelatinization. Stir, stir, stir and stir some more.

[Zacher]

Going to try again with the same process but will add more time to each rest and add some amylase. Will let the sac rest go for a couple of hours and will stir every 10-15 minutes. Also, triple milled the corn this time.....I will report back!

[Deplorable]

Im not sure you grasp what needs to be done. You need to gel the corn FIRST by cooking it, then add your malts. If you slowly heat all of your grains together, you're going to denature your enzymes before your corn is gelled, again leaving you with poor efficiency.

[Zacher]

Im not sure you grasp what needs to be done. You need to gel the corn FIRST by cooking it, then add your malts. If you slowly heat all of your grains together, you're going to denature your enzymes before your corn is gelled, again leaving you with poor efficiency.

You are correct about my confusion. I watched this, which makes sense to me as a brewer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfAR_Y

I'm also confused about cooking the corn versus the video as what I have read says you cook the flaked maize, but not cracked corn. I'm a rookie on this so please let me know why you need to bring the cracked corn to 180? I also do not agree that you will denature the enzymes by doughing in at 106ish and then doing a protein rest ~130. From my experience, enzymes denature at 165+ with alpha activating ~145 and beta being more active ~155 which is why I always try to do a Hochkurz mash at both temps to maximize efficiency. Not picking a fight here, just trying to understand!

-Zacher

[elbono]

Corn needs to be gelatinized before the enzymes can convert the starch to sugars. Flaked corn is "pregelatinized", so a lot of the work has been done.

Cracked corn can be gelatinized but grinding makes the process faster.

YouTube gets little respect in this forum, the guy you watched is one of the most notable for outright WRONG information.

Stlliit is pretty good as far as YouTube goes but it's easy to take away the wrong impression even from Jesse. At least the information isn't just plain WRONG.

Do some of the tried and true recipes exactly as written and they will work. Once you have them down pat you may be ready to change things here and there.

[Zacher]

Appreciate the candor! Going to raise the corn to 180 in the RIMS then cool to 150 and add the grains. I love me a good forum…..

[elbono]

I'm a rookie on this so please let me know why you need to bring the cracked corn to 180? I also do not agree that you will denature the enzymes by doughing in at 106ish and then doing a protein rest ~130. From my experience, enzymes denature at 165+ with alpha activating ~145 and beta being more active ~155 which is why I always try to do a Hochkurz mash at both temps to maximize efficiency. Not picking a fight here, just trying to understand!

-Zacher

Get used to being a rookie, I've been at it for about 2 1/2 years and barely to start feel a little less noobish.

Here's a good article on mashing and the enzymes involved. Unfermentable sugars you get if you put the malt in over 145-150F can be desirable if you're making beer. All they do for you in distilling is make the ferment not finish dry and maybe promote infections (infections arenot entirely a bad thing sometimes they're great).

https://distilling.com/distillermagazin ... istry-101/

[Zacher]

Awesome, thanks. Makes sense and I love the education!

[Zacher]

Can’t beat a good forum…..

[elbono]

Put "corn rims" in the search function and you'll find a few threads. I had to look up rims, they don't seem popular in making distillers beer. May be because the corn turns to mush when gelatinizing. Add some rye to the mix and...

All amounts to a lot of beer making techniques apply, a lot are contrary to the objective. You'll have to sort them out.

[Deplorable]

Can’t beat a good forum…..

How big are your ferments?

[Zacher]

Yes it’s a gelatinous mess. But that’s ok. Looking to get 5 gallons a to ferment.

[Zacher]

Rye and 6 row going in as soon as it gets to 150….

[elbono]

Rye and 6 row going in as soon as it gets to 150….

Hope you held 180F for a good while. At that temp I'm guessing at least a couple of hours is needed.

I do SCD's easy large batch method so I just wait several hours until it drops naturally to malt tempertures with all the insulation I can put on it. I get over 180F maybe 190F when I add boiling water and keep it there as long as I can usually a little more than overnight.

If you haven't added malts yet I don't think taking the temp back up hurts.

[Zacher]

Was at 180 for about 2 hours. Total goop so let it come down to 150 and just added the rye and 6 row. About to toss in some amylase and let it stay at 150 for about 2 hours. Good plan?

[elbono]

If the corn fully gelatinized you're good. You'll be able to tell by SG when you're ready to pitch yeast.

I'm a fan of longer is better, except when it gets under 115-120. I've had wild yeast ferments take off around there so I cool to pitching temp when it hits 120. For me dump boiling water on corn meal in the afternoon, malt temp the next morning, cool to pitch temp the morning after that.

You mention amylase, I use ferm solutions enzymes but 1 liter is their min package. Sebstar/sebamyl are popular and available in smaller sizes.

You may find the high temp enzymes makes life easier especially with an infusion system.

I did some 30% rye recently, the slime wasn't really bad. I plan on trying a 90% rye and the viscoseb enzymes look interesting.


viewtopic.php?t=90902

Obviously Pintoshine isn't a YouTube rising star and I'm no expert but hopefully there's good info in there.

[shadylane]

You may find the high temp enzymes makes life easier.

No doubt about that.

It takes a lot of stirring to successfully convert starch to sugar.
A barrel full of thin corn soup is easier to stir than thick corn pudding.
The only reason I'd do without high temp alpha, would be because I was trying to do it the old-fashioned and hard way. Then I'd have to sacrifice part of the malt to do the job that HT does so much better.