Producers Pride

[Saltbush Bill]

I watched this, which makes sense to me as a brewer.

There is your first big mistake, that bloke causes new distillers more trouble and has given out more bad information than any other youtuber has on distilling.
To the point where he and his links are are banned from this forum.
Suggest you read the forum Rules, inparticular rule I
The link you posted to that site has been edited too no longer work.

[Zacher]

So it was better but still only about 40% total conversion. I stirred every 10-15 minutes for 2 hours. Maybe I need a thinner mash?

[Zacher]

I watched this, which makes sense to me as a brewer.

There is your first big mistake, that bloke causes new distillers more trouble and has given out more bad information than any other youtuber has on distilling.
To the point where he and his links are are banned from this forum.
Suggest you read the forum Rules, inparticular rule I
The link you posted to that site has been edited too longer work.

My bad.......sorry.

[Bee]

If you want to make sweetfeed, do it from scratch. All you need is the grain and a jug of molasses. Because you add the grain when you want, you don't end up taking things like oats and rye up to 180f, you can mash them at their proper temps. Plus, you can use only quality ingredients.
Check out the ingredients in PP:

Processed Grain By-Products, Grain Products, Roughage Products, Molasses Products, Calcium Carbonate, Plant Protein Products, Animal Fat Preserved with Ethoxyquin, Salt, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Iodate, Magnesium Oxide, Cobalt Carbonate, Ferrous Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Manganous Oxide.

What is "Roughage products"? Sounds to me like they pick corn out of poop. Plus things like salt are not good for yeast.

Control your product - make it from scratch. It's not difficult.

[elbono]

So it was better but still only about 40% total conversion. I stirred every 10-15 minutes for 2 hours. Maybe I need a thinner mash?

Thinner is easier. 2 lb grain/gallon water is pretty normal. I go as low as 1.8 lb/gallon but some run as much as 3 lb/gallon or more.

If you don't have high temp enzymes you can sacrifice a bit of the malt at corn gelatinization temp to thin out the porridge too.

The recipes I see keep the corn at simmering temp (~212?) for 1 to 1 1/2 hours. Lower temp takes longer, I do overnight in a well insulated barrel starting at 180-190F and letting it cool naturally to malt temp.

[still_stirrin]

What is "Roughage products"? Sounds to me like they pick corn out of poop…

Since this is feed stock, the “roughage products” is fiber, mostly from the grain stalk. It isn’t “poop”, but helps the animal process poop.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t add much to the sweet feed for our purposes. But, it shouldn’t hurt our processes either.

If you want better control of what goes into the sweet feed, then it would be better to use whole grains and make your own sweet feed mixture.
ss

[elbono]

So it was better but still only about 40% total conversion. I stirred every 10-15 minutes for 2 hours. Maybe I need a thinner mash?

I checked my notes and here's a recent pretty successful mash for me:
18.5 lb corn meal (from whole kernel feed corn)
10 lb rye malt
5 lb 2 row malt
17 gallons boiling water
I believe that's similar to your recipe. I calculate 2 lb/gal, 1.066 SG @ 100%, 52 lintner

I do my mashes in halves, first half at 12:30 temp was 183F after adding water to corn, next half was at 13:30 temp was 185F after adding more corn and water.
That evening at 18:00 temp was still at 174F
Next morning at 10:30 temp was down to 147F I added malts, down to 142F after mash in.
Next morning after that at 7:30 it was down to 122F so I cooled it to 95F, aerated and pitched yeast. SG was 1.053. I probably stirred a dozen times during the whole process.

I judge that at 80% conversion, best of all it finished dry at 0.998 SG.

So my total gel time was over 18 hours but most of the gelling probably happened while it was over 170F, 6 hours or a little more. My total conversion time was 21 hours. Conversion still only 80% but I was happy with it

You almost certainly don't need to go to this extreme but try holding temps a lot longer than you have.

A sister batch one day behind that one I got 1.056 SG but it finished at 1.012, I ended up with below 6% instead of over 7%. I blame putting the malts in 5F higher producing unfermentables.

Raising your diastatic may help too but the corn has to be well gelled or it's chaff in the wind.

Watch the malt in temp to prevent unfermentables.

[Zacher]

Thanks Elbono that was very helpful. I need to get some better product as was mentioned and will definitely let the corn rest at 180 much longer. How did you get your whole kernal feed corn?

[elbono]

Whole vs cracked probably doesn't make much difference. I feel like it may go stale a little slower than cracked but it seems a lot cleaner too.

You should find it right next to the cracked corn at TSC and a little cheaper. I got a couple of bags at TSC that had weevils so I switched to the local farmers CO-OP. Seems a bit cleaner and definitely more local so it may be fresher too. If you want to go fancy azure is about the best but you have to go meet the truck for free shipping.
https://www.azurestandard.com/shop/prod ... kage=GR027

You milled 2 or three times, what was the result?

I used a corona mill for a long time and twice would give me a coarse meal. I have a hammer mill now with a sieve and use the 2 mm sieve to get about what store bought meal looks like, a little finer than the corona. I experimented a little with a 0.6 mm sieve and got flour but decided it didn't make a difference I could detect. If you're close to store bought meal you're good.

When I mashed in a pot on a gas burner I would shoot for a simmer but almost scorched a few times. When I used sebstar I used 185-190F because it's max is 190

If you can up the temp WITHOUT SCORCHING it will make the corn gel faster.

BTW, how do my calcs ( 18.5 lb corn, 10 lb rye malt, 5 lb 2 row malt, 17 gallons water 1.066 SG @ 100%, 52 lintner) compare to yours? I'm still a newb and not totally confident about that stuff. You beer guys have a big leg up on me there.

[elbono]

I'm surprised no one has said this but corn is a b*tch. Keep at it and it gets easier with practice.

[Deplorable]

I'm surprised no one has said this but corn is a b*tch. Keep at it and it gets easier with practice.

I think for anyone who hasn't been around here long enough to do the homework, corn can be a struggle.
However, if you go into that first corn mash knowing what to expect, you'll be prepared to deal with it properly

[elbono]

I think for anyone who hasn't been around here long enough to do the homework, corn can be a struggle.
However, if you go into that first corn mash knowing what to expect, you'll be prepared to deal with it properly

Yeah but it's still a learning experience. I think beer guys have a harder time because they already "know how to mash"

[shadylane]

I'm surprised no one has said this but corn is a b*tch. Keep at it and it gets easier with practice.

It gets a lot easier with steam.
A baine marie is also nice, running cool water through the jacket makes a great chiller.

[Zacher]

Elbono, your mash bill looks very similar. A little lower % of corn at 55% vs my 60%. I have a roller mill and used the .050 setting and then the .025 setting. I thought the crush looked just fine. I spent much of yesterday diving in to the "must reads" and while my eyes are not bleeding yet, they will be by the end of the week. I also got bad information from another source so I'm in the right place now to learn properly. I'm kind of mad at myself for starting in the wrong spot but live and learn. My rig is a 25G RIMS system that has treated me well for 10 years now for beer brewing, but I do have to modify my process which is another learning curve. I'm able to heat up the water in the HLT and then transfer it to the mash tun so I can avoid the scorching. Many thanks to all that have put up with me thus far. I will read up and ask better questions.....

[bilgriss]

One of the most common mistakes for beginners is jumping in head first before having all the information. This is probably worse for those with some homebrewing experience, as we make a lot of assumptions. In truth, there are some big differences, particularly if you try to do a mash with different grains than you are used to. They behave differently, need to be mashed at lower temperatures than for homebrewing (where residual sugar is a plus and not a minus that will make it harder to distill and reduce product volume), and may require additional procedures.

Corn doesn't behave like malted barley and wheat. It requires gelatinization to make starches available for conversion, and there are about a gazillion threads on this forum where people ask the same questions again and again because they don't understand that process. Again, if you've used flaked corn in the past, which is rolled and pre-gelatinized, a homebrewer might jump to conclusions. Feed corn has to be cooked. It's easy to scorch, which will ruin it. Careful use of liquid enzymes or strategic additions of barley malt at the right points will help thin it out and make it manageable.

There are a handful of corn recipes in the Tried and True section of the forum. Those have been tested again and again for procedures, and if you follow the instructions exactly you should get results that mirror their description. I recommend starting there. Then by seeing what works and what doesn't, you can refine your process, and eventually you'll have enough intuitive understanding that you can branch out and start creating your own recipes and procedures.

Above all, stay safe. There are points in this process where things can blow up. Literally. It's very important that while you are having fun, you have a full understanding and don't replicate rookie mistakes with a new still.

[Zacher]

Thanks Bilgriss. No doubt there are processes that defy my homebrew knowledge. Been reading a lot and plan to do a lot more.....but glad I'm in the right place for that education.

[Twisted Brick]

In truth, there are some big differences, particularly if you try to do a mash with different grains than you are used to. They behave differently, need to be mashed at lower temperatures than for homebrewing (where residual sugar is a plus and not a minus that will make it harder to distill and reduce product volume), and may require additional procedures.

Good point. Not mentioned is the limiting effects of boiling one's 'wort' prior to fermentation. The Hochkurz mash addresses less-than-optimum malt, unneeded in today's world of fully-modified malts and certainly not for corn. There are applications where rests can be beneficial (search beta-glucans) but predominantly, a single-infusion mash is preferred.

Keep reading through corn, bourbon and rye posts. You'll get there.

[Zacher]

Many takeaways from my first post. Thanks for the guidance. So the initial wash that I treated like a beer mash has fermented from 1.062 to 1.016. Obviously I did not get much if anything out of the corn and still have some residual sugars. It tastes a bit sour but not awful. Just wondering if I should run this or toss it?

[shadylane]

Definitely run it.

[Deplorable]

Sour is what you're looking for in a distillers beer. You want your wert to ferment out completely dry, or as close to it as possible, leaving you with a sour tasting wash for the still. Residual sugars found in a beer are not desirable, could induce puking, or a scorch in the worst cases.
Not that it needs to be repeated, but your goal in fermentation for distilling is to convert all of the available starches to sugars, then into alcohol.
Keep at it, and you'll begin to see significant improvements in your efficiency.
Fortunately for me, by the time I started getting into this hobby, I had forgotten much of what I had learned about making beer.

[elbono]

Yes, run it but...

You got 1.062 at 33% mash efficiency? At 85% you were shooting for around 1.160? For me thats around 5 lb of grain in a gallon of water. If so back off to more like 2-3 lb/gallon.

If you got 1.062 on your first corn mash you're doing great even if you wasted some grain.

If it makes you pucker when you taste it after fermentation you got it right.

[Zacher]

Thanks guys. Will run it and report back.....

[shadylane]

Thanks guys. Will run it and report back.....

There Ya go.
In the future someone will be searching, find this and learn what the outcome was.

[Zacher]

Update: Ran it last night and got about 2 quarts or just under 2l of hearts. Then it started raining and I had to get a big umbrella over my column. The temp went up and down and the rest was nothing to brag about. What I am happy about it that it tastes pretty darn good. Must be all of that malt with some corn flavor! Glad I ran it. Thanks for the advice.

[Zacher]

Update: Had another go today at the corn. Busted out my OG beer mash tun: a 10G Home Depot cooler with a stainless braid surrounded by a sturdier stainless mesh as the filter to the ball valve. I did a single infusion wash of 7G with 12 pounds of cracked corn last night at 210F. Once stirred it came down to 174F so I covered it, stirred a few times afterwards and let it sit overnight. This morning it was at 152F so I added 6 pounds of 6-row and 3.5 pounds of malted oats (mainly because I was out of rye and had lots of oats around). This brought the temp to 147 so I let it sit for 4 hours and stirred a couple of times again. It actually drained well through all the porridge. Then I pulled out the grains in the brew bag and squeezed out the rest of the liquid to get to about 5.5 gallons of wash at 1.053. If it ferments out I should get to about 7% ABV. I'm thinking about a small rinse of the grains next time but would appreciate any input on the process and results. Thanks in advance!-Zacher

[Zacher]

After the squeeze it actually ended up at 1.057 or 7.75% ABV at 100%. I am quite pleased and thank you for all the direction!

[Zacher]

Just wanted to share an experience today with people that would appreciate it. I started this thread because Producers Pride was the only cracked corn I could get my hands on commercially and local (and I needed to be set straight after getting some bad advice). Thanks to the forum, I started thinking about heading to a farm as I'm only about an hour from Amish country. Running an errand today I found myself close to the area so I thought I would do a little exploring. I asked at a produce stand where I might find some corn feed and was directed a couple miles away. Long story short, I was able to procure 2-50# bags of fresh corn feed from the stand at the farmers house for $20. I can't tell you how happy I was on the drive home and that the farmer gave me his card and told me to call whenever I needed more!

[tombombadil]

I also had a rough start dealing with corn.
Congrats on figuring it out!

[Zacher]

I also had a rough start dealing with corn.
Congrats on figuring it out!

I got some bad advice elsewhere and then found this forum which set me straight!

[Saltbush Bill]

One of the most common mistakes for beginners is jumping in head first before having all the information. This is probably worse for those with some homebrewing experience, as we make a lot of assumptions.

Nice work bilgriss, every new member who has previous beer making experience should read your post before proceeding further.
Your right, we see the same mistakes over and over again, by "experienced" brewers.