Cuts at barrel strength

[ckdistills]

Hi folks, I've got mid single digit spirit runs of all-grain whiskeys under my belt and one sugarhead on the spent grain. My keep cuts are consistently 71-73% ABV. I'd love to have my keep cuts closer to barrel strength in the low-mid 60's so that I'm not diluting flavor with water to age.

Low wines go into the boiler at 28-30%. I run slow through fores and into heads and then boost power to collect 1.2 - 1.5 liters / hours. 7.75 gallon boiler, generally 5-6.5 gallons of low wines.

I've seen that low wine ABV target as a way of getting to barrel strength final product in other posts. But it isn't working for me. I could try taking low wines to 25% (?) and see how that drops my spirit run ABV. I could keep deeper into tails - but I feel like I'm already keeping more than I would want to drink if it was kept white.

Any suggestions? What low wine ABV should I be collecting to target 60-62% ABV keep on the spirit run? Or am I just thinking about this backwards?

[Bolverk]

I think you're thinking about it right, but your low wines are too high proof. Assuming you're using a pot still and you are collecting an 8-10% abv wash down to about 10% your combined low wines will be at around 20% and your spirit run will be at about 65%.

If you want a lower proof run a little hotter/faster, the down side is your cuts point will be a little muddied compared to running a little cooler/slower.

[NZChris]

It's not often that I have Low Wines as high as 28%.

How do you choose your cuts? By tasting prospective blends, by tasting individual jars, or cutting on the fly? My highest yields, best flavors, and lowest heart cut proofs come from tasting prospective blends.

[NormandieStill]

I run my whisky low wines down 20-25% (They tend to be oily and cloudy by the time I'm finished, but that always cleans up in the spirit run). My resulting blends tend to fall in the 60-65% range. The only time I run higher is sugar washes for neutral where I'm not looking to pull over as much flavour as possible, and for apple brandy where I follow the standard practice for Calvados where low wines are collected until around 35%, because the prized apple flavour is hiding in the heads, not in the tails.

[Bradster68]

I think most collect low wines down pretty far. For whiskey anyways. I also think good cuts will keep you in the closer to barrel strength area. Try starting with your middle jar working your way out testing abv as you go.
When you get to say 65% see whats left.
I was way off as a rookie when I started making My cuts,sometimes ending up at 80 or even 85%. Now I'm hovering around 60 to 65% consistently, just from blending by taste

[tombombadil]

I aim for 25% low wines, collect the spirit run in jars and try to blend without checking proof, always end up around 60%.

[ckdistills]

I think you're thinking about it right, but your low wines are too high proof. Assuming you're using a pot still and you are collecting an 8-10% abv wash down to about 10% your combined low wines will be at around 20% and your spirit run will be at about 65%.

If you want a lower proof run a little hotter/faster, the down side is your cuts point will be a little muddied compared to running a little cooler/slower.

Yes pot still, wash is 8-9%, and I'm actually under 10% off the spout - often in the 5-8% range and ending up with that 28-30% combined ABV.

How do you choose your cuts? By tasting prospective blends, by tasting individual jars, or cutting on the fly? My highest yields, best flavors, and lowest heart cut proofs come from tasting prospective blends.

Interesting. I'm using individual jars collecting 300ml each. When you taste prospective blends are you blending your sure hearts jars and then testing blends from that by adding questionable jars for each test?

[ckdistills]

I also think good cuts will keep you in the closer to barrel strength area. Try starting with your middle jar working your way out testing abv as you go.
When you get to say 65% see whats left.

Thanks - that's basically what I'm doing. For my last all grain spirit run, I kept jar 6 @ 78% through jar 21 @ 63% (all 300 ml). I started around jar 10 and worked out.

[ckdistills]

I run my whisky low wines down 20-25% (They tend to be oily and cloudy by the time I'm finished, but that always cleans up in the spirit run). My resulting blends tend to fall in the 60-65% range. The only time I run higher is sugar washes for neutral where I'm not looking to pull over as much flavour as possible, and for apple brandy where I follow the standard practice for Calvados where low wines are collected until around 35%, because the prized apple flavour is hiding in the heads, not in the tails.

I aim for 25% low wines, collect the spirit run in jars and try to blend without checking proof, always end up around 60%.

This is great - I'm going to just dig deeper in the low wines to get 25% combined ABV, test that and keep going lower if needed.

This may change my math a bit on target wash volume. I aim for 20 gallons, so 4 5 gallon stripping charges. Each stripping run results in about 1.25 gallons of low wines for a total low wine volume of 5 gallons, same as the stripping run volume. Guessing I'll end up with closer to 1.5 gallons / stripping run for a total of 6 gallons of low wines. Should still be fine in my 7.75 gallon boiler.

[still_stirrin]

—> My keep cuts are consistently 71-73% ABV…I'd love to have my keep cuts closer to barrel strength in the low-mid 60's…
—> Low wines go into the boiler at 28-30%…
—> I could try taking low wines to 25% and see how that drops my spirit run ABV.
—> I could keep deeper into tails…

Any suggestions?

OK, let me help explain this to you. If you want your collection at “barrel strength”, you obviously want to keep as much flavor of the spirit as you can.

So, first off … don’t stop collecting the low wines until your collection is has a lower %ABV, or the “proof at the spout” is down to 10-15%ABV, or even lower.

With a low wines collection at 25%ABV +/- , you’ll have some of the oily, husky, grainy qualities in the collection and those will dramatically increase the flavor in the final spirit. But to get to that point, you will have to run a lot longer on the stripping run(s). It will seem like forever because the production rate will slow significantly and you’ll burn more energy, both into the boiler and the product condenser (heating and cooling). Psych yourself up for the “time & money investment”.

Finally, for the spirit run, collect in more jars so you get a “finer comb” to select the hearts cut. More jars will allow you to blend back some of the spirit run with lower %ABV (and more “earthy” flavors) back to the hearts. Also, if you like the fruity esters often found in the late heads/early hearts, you can add a touch of them back to the hearts too…it adds complexity that the oak will help tame. Remember, you don’t have to add the whole jar either … enough to impart the quality without overpowering the blend.

Also, bear in mind, that blending is not a “by the numbers” process. You need to focus on the flavors and how you want your “signature” defined. This is a crucial part of the artistry of this hobby. Experience will help you the most here. So, “learn as you go”. You’ll be surprised how the quality of your product improves as you enjoy the journey.
ss

[Bolverk]

Yes pot still, wash is 8-9%, and I'm actually under 10% off the spout - often in the 5-8% range and ending up with that 28-30% combined ABV.

Then I'd say you're just not running fast enough, a stripping run should be run as hot and fast as your condenser can keep up with, you want to carry over a bunch of the water/flavor from your beer as you can.

The other option.... save a little beer and when you've collected all your low wines and if its too high of a proof dilute it with that instead of water.

[NZChris]

How do you choose your cuts? By tasting prospective blends, by tasting individual jars, or cutting on the fly? My highest yields, best flavors, and lowest heart cut proofs come from tasting prospective blends.

Interesting. I'm using individual jars collecting 300ml each. When you taste prospective blends are you blending your sure hearts jars and then testing blends from that by adding questionable jars for each test?

Jars that don't taste great on their own are needed in the blend to capture the essence of the grain/cane/fruit/etc., so I make up a sample of the obvious heart cut jars, (the middle ones with no obvious flaws), and taste it, then alternately add to the sample from jars from each end until I identify the jars that are one too far.
I use a 5ml dipper made out of a bent spoon, take my time, dilute to around 35% for tasting, use a spittoon and rinse with fresh water between tastings.

Whatever method you use, it pays to make up a sample of your final choice and taste that before committing your hard work to a single vessel.

[OtisT]

Yes pot still, wash is 8-9%, and I'm actually under 10% off the spout - often in the 5-8% range and ending up with that 28-30% combined ABV.

Then I'd say you're just not running fast enough, a stripping run should be run as hot and fast as your condenser can keep up with, you want to carry over a bunch of the water/flavor from your beer as you can.

The other option.... save a little beer and when you've collected all your low wines and if its too high of a proof dilute it with that instead of water.

My strip runs are very similar to what ckdistills’ runs look like. 8% in the boiler to 28-30% low wines and it’s coming off the spout around 8% when I stop. 5500w on a pot still.

Still stirin’ has it right about the extra power and time to takes to get your low wines down to your desired ABV. Once you hit around 30% production starts to get really slow.

[NZChris]

Still stirin’ has it right about the extra power and time to takes to get your low wines down to your desired ABV. Once you hit around 30% production starts to get really slow.

That's when a preheater comes in handy. Near the end of a deep strip mine is usually producing, often the foreshot has already been taken before it goes into the main still. When stripping for 15% Low Wines for a triple distilled whisky, long before the strip is finished there is more alcohol coming from the preheater than from the main still, and that is a lot of time and energy saved.

[ckdistills]

If you want your collection at “barrel strength”, you obviously want to keep as much flavor of the spirit as you can.

Yes, that's the idea - TBD if I'll like it or not!

So, first off … don’t stop collecting the low wines until your collection is has a lower %ABV, or the “proof at the spout” is down to 10-15%ABV, or even lower.

With a low wines collection at 25%ABV +/- , you’ll have some of the oily, husky, grainy qualities in the collection and those will dramatically increase the flavor in the final spirit. But to get to that point, you will have to run a lot longer on the stripping run(s). It will seem like forever because the production rate will slow significantly and you’ll burn more energy, both into the boiler and the product condenser (heating and cooling). Psych yourself up for the “time & money investment”.

Right, I'm already going under 10% off the spout on stripping runs and still ending up with 28-30% low wines. It sure does get slow at the end, going to keep going another little bit to get down to 25% combined ABV.

Finally, for the spirit run, collect in more jars so you get a “finer comb” to select the hearts cut. More jars will allow you to blend back some of the spirit run with lower %ABV (and more “earthy” flavors) back to the hearts. Also, if you like the fruity esters often found in the late heads/early hearts, you can add a touch of them back to the hearts too…it adds complexity that the oak will help tame. Remember, you don’t have to add the whole jar either … enough to impart the quality without overpowering the blend.

Thanks - going to try the 'test the blend' approach next time, including partial jars!

[ckdistills]

Then I'd say you're just not running fast enough, a stripping run should be run as hot and fast as your condenser can keep up with, you want to carry over a bunch of the water/flavor from your beer as you can.

The other option.... save a little beer and when you've collected all your low wines and if its too high of a proof dilute it with that instead of water.

I'm stripping now at 3,000 watts after a condenser upgrade but to be honest I don't notice much difference in LW volume or ABV between that and when I was running slower at 1,500 - 2,000. I'm really consistent with 1.25 gallons at 29ish %. Some quick math says collecting another quart will get me under 25%.

[ckdistills]

That's when a preheater comes in handy. Near the end of a deep strip mine is usually producing, often the foreshot has already been taken before it goes into the main still. When stripping for 15% Low Wines for a triple distilled whisky, long before the strip is finished there is more alcohol coming from the preheater than from the main still, and that is a lot of time and energy saved.

Not to get off topic but your pre-heater is inspiring!

[Bolverk]

Then I'd say you're just not running fast enough, a stripping run should be run as hot and fast as your condenser can keep up with, you want to carry over a bunch of the water/flavor from your beer as you can.

The other option.... save a little beer and when you've collected all your low wines and if its too high of a proof dilute it with that instead of water.

I'm stripping now at 3,000 watts after a condenser upgrade but to be honest I don't notice much difference in LW volume or ABV between that and when I was running slower at 1,500 - 2,000. I'm really consistent with 1.25 gallons at 29ish %. Some quick math says collecting another quart will get me under 25%.

Others have solid points about cuts and such, but if your starting abv is too high there only so much you can do. Does your still have an unusually tall riser? A lot of packing?

I love a good 1.5 run for a ton of flavor. Maybe try something like that?

[ckdistills]

Yes - lots to try next time! Now to get another ferment going.

[ckdistills]

Does your still have an unusually tall riser? A lot of packing?

No packing and the riser is 15" to the bottom of the lyne arm.



I really appreciate all the input and advice in this thread. Thank you all!

[Bolverk]

No packing and the riser is 15" to the bottom of the lyne arm.

That's not excessive, I was thinking maybe you could have some passive reflux going on... could just be how your still runs.

Check out the 1.5 runs... if you like heavy flavors that'll be your jam.