used barrels

[RBL]

I have 4 barrels I have filled, drained and refilled several times. The one I drained last year after a 3rd use seemed to have a little off flavor but was not that bad. i just drained another barrel and it has an off smell and flavor. I am using the same corn liker recipe that I have used for 15 years and all the barrels have had great smell and flavor until now. has anyone had any issues with barrels on 3rd, 4th or 5th refill having off flavor? I cannot think of anything else that is causing this.

[still_stirrin]

It probably is the “well used” barrels causing the flavors in your product. Commercial producers use casks only once and then sell them. Reusing a cask a second time may be OK, but the quality of the product will diminish with continued reuse. I would never consider using a cask more than 2 or possibly 3 times. After that, you’d be better off disassembling and reconditioning or even recycling the wood.

5 refills … way beyond what I’d suggest.
ss

[6 Row Joe]

Yep, time to retire them. 3 times maximum I would say. All the goodie is gone after that.

[Dancing4dan]

I have wanted to try recoopering a barrel.

https://www.brewersjournal.ca/2018/01/2 ... coopering/

[jonnys_spirit]

Really? Three uses and done?

Can’t neutral barrels be used for storage with fresh charred adjunct staves added as needed?

I don’t intend on retiring my BadMo’s and Gibbs if I can get fresh oak into them other ways…

I’m currently experimenting with using a stave packed mason jar topped up w/likker to cycle some neutral barrel spirit through.

Cheers,
j

[contrahead]

I have wanted to try recoopering a barrel.

You might be able to purchase a 2nd hand (refurbished) Kawasaki ZX300S Robot for about $80,000.
https://drivesncontrols.com/news/fullst ... _life.html

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Historical note:

No one knows for sure, but for 6 centuries or perhaps for much longer; Basque Whalers were rendering whale blubber into extremely valuable whale oil (for lamp light) from the shoreline of Newfoundland.

From their launching (from the Bay of Biscay or wherever) to the coast of Labrador, they took along every possible provision they could think of, for the long voyage. A voyage might have taken a year, or even several. Whale oil was transported in wooden cask – just like booze. On the outward passage the whale oil cask were “knocked down”, to save space. These were reassembled as needed. On the return passage, a typical ship was filled to the brim with oil casks. Just a single ship returning with a load of oil was actually more valuable than any of the Spanish Treasure fleets that returned from the New World with gold and silver.

https://nabasque.eus/whaling.html
https://www.historymuseum.ca/virtual-mu ... e-whalers/

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Refurbishing a barrel should be straight forward. A hammer, cat's paw (nail puller) and LP burner are needed.
(1) number the slats with a crayon
(2) pull nails and knock the metal bands off
(3) sand and grind away char
(4) apply new char with propane burner or fire
(5) reassemble and re-nail barrel

[HDNB]

the tail oils soak into the wood. after a number of cycles, it's gonna get more noticeable.

[RBL]

thanks for the replies and opinions. I really didn't think you could use up all the good out of the wood. I get that it took longer each refill to get same color and flavor and three uses in all the barrels have produced a great product. Guess it's time to buy some new ones. maybe I'll give it a try and refurbishing the ones I have. I have 4 try's to get it right!

[RBL]

next question - can anything be done to save the 5 gallons of 1 year old liker? it smells like finger nail polish remover. it doesn't taste near that bad, but it is defiantly off and not something i want to drink much of even as a mixer.

[jonnys_spirit]

Fingernail polish sound like early heads or fores... Plenty of folks use charred oak sticks in glass.. If it is fores you could re-distill it and take a fores cut. Five gallons would be a bit much to lose..

I'm not convinced that the barrels are completely unusable but I haven't reached a 4-5 use threshold either. Plenty of producers around the globe re-use bourbon barrels for a number of years. 12, 15, 18 yr scotch is pretty good in my opinion..

You might try to pack a jar or two with charred/toasted oak fingers and top it up with some of the corn likker for a few months, empty it into the barrel, refill the jar, and repeat to a certain point - bourbon/oak extract if you will.. Plus some age... You can always re-distill it - perhaps proofing it down to 30%abv with fresh ferment then re-distilling...

Cheers,
jonny

[acfixer69]

next question - can anything be done to save the 5 gallons of 1 year old liker? it smells like finger nail polish remover. it doesn't taste near that bad, but it is defiantly off and not something i want to drink much of even as a mixer.

I it smells like heads after a year on oak and good cuts were taken at the start, angles are taking the hearts. What was the ABV when you filled and what is it now. You can always re-distill it.

[RBL]

It didn't smell like finger nail polish remover before it was put in barrel. I am pretty conservative with cuts and only put the best in barrels. Any questionable heads/tails get used in mixed drinks or experiments. I have (4) 5 gallon barrels and between them have filled/drained 15 times total over the last 10 years. the first fill doesn't take near as long getting the color/flavor i like. Until last year on a 3rd fill having a slightly off flavor i have never had anything but enjoyable whiskey for them. The liker i put in is same recipe and protocol i have used for years. though I enjoy brown whiskey, it is not all i drink. I experiment with a lot of different toasted/charred wood in jars as well as some other flavors. i honestly didn't expect that you can over use a barrel.
the ABV going in the barrel was 125 proof and coming out was at 130 proof. it was in barrel for two full years and i lost about a 1 1/2 gallons to the angels.

[Saltbush Bill]

Really? Three uses and done?

I don’t intend on retiring my BadMo’s and Gibbs if I can get fresh oak into them other ways…

I'm with you on this one Jonny, Some of my barrels have been in constant use for over 9 years now, others for 6 or 7 ......been a lot of booze through them in that time.
Some times I top them up with pre oaked spirt, some times I add a few charred sticks or S.D. dominoes to the barrels.
I let friends and family decide on what the outcomes are..........no complaints from anyone at this point in time.

[RBL]

the more i think about it the less i think it is multiple barrel usage. If i am putting the same product in every couple years, what is the difference than just leaving it for 12 years?
I also have a couple half gallon jars with charred sticks that i top off the barrels occasionally. them angles get greedy.

[Twisted Brick]

If i am putting the same product in every couple years, what is the difference than just leaving it for 12 years?

I have always believed that a barrel can be used for many fills, relying on the permeability of oak beyond an understandably diminishing amount of goodies remaining in the wood. At some point a well-used barrel's life could be extended by adding fresh sticks or be replaced.

But as HDNB suggested, over time the build-up of oils from tails can contribute to off-flavors. By my math, a succession of six distinct 2yr additions of fresh newmake spirit to the same size barrel adds 6x the tails a 12-year soak of a single addition would.

[LordL]

If i am putting the same product in every couple years, what is the difference than just leaving it for 12 years?

I have always believed that a barrel can be used for many fills, relying on the permeability of oak beyond an understandably diminishing amount of goodies remaining in the wood. At some point a well-used barrel's life could be extended by adding fresh sticks or be replaced.

But as HDNB suggested, over time the build-up of oils from tails can contribute to off-flavors. By my math, a succession of six distinct 2yr additions of fresh newmake spirit to the same size barrel adds 6x the tails a 12-year soak of a single addition would.

I think I would invest in a small propane burner.

Scrape the inside of old char, re-char, put back together.I think some third fill users do this. Maybe even second fillers.

[Deplorable]

I dont even think you need to fully break down the barrel. Just pop the heads out, scrape the inside clean, re-char it, re-char the heads, and put them back in. Im sure eventually I'll have to do this with mine, or just break them down and harvest the wood and buy new barrels.
I think my oldest one is destined to become an end table next to my whiskey barrel chair. I need a place to set my glass.

[tombombadil]

Hmmm... You guys have got me wondering if I should use a barrel for a third fill.

It had bourbon for about 18 months,
Rum now for going almost 18 months.

My plan was to fill it with purple barley whiskey next.

[Twisted Brick]

I'd do it. The 5gal second fill bourbon barrel I bought was perfect in matching a 24mo spirit aging period with the barrel's 24mo contribution. Your third-fill batch would understandably take longer than 2yrs (32-40mo's?) but the permeability (air/ethanol exchange) quotient of the wood should still be intact. If your oak goodies have been somewhat depleted, you could always add an appropriate number of sticks to the barrel and bob's yer uncle. My $.02 anyway. I plan to use my now 2nd fill barrel again knowing full well it will take a little longer.

[Deplorable]

Do like I did, and add some oak fingers to the barrel.
I drilled holes through my oak sticks before toasting and charring them then threaded them onto a length of SS safety wire attached to the bung. They've added that new "barrel contribution" to the 3rd fill HBB.

[Saltbush Bill]

Do like I did, and add some oak fingers to the barrel.
I drilled holes through my oak sticks before toasting and charring them then threaded them onto a length of SS safety wire attached to the bung. They've added that new "barrel contribution" to the 3rd fill HBB.

Pretty much what I'm doing with my older barrels......that and topping up with pre aged booze oaked in glass.

[RBL]

so i was able to have someone else smell/taste what i drained out of this last barrel. it was proofed down to 85. he said he did not notice any off smell and said it tasted good. I still get an off smell and taste but no where near as bad as it was a few weeks ago. so maybe it is just me. I did have to covid in 2021 and lost all taste and smell. took months to come back and every now and then something seems off but i have just ignored it.
I have two barrels that were filled in March, for 3rd time, and I don't get off smell from them so that is why i am not understanding the issue with this one barrel. I have another barrel that was filled in January of 2021 on a 4th refill. It is obviously not as dark as i would like but it also smells and tastes fine to me.
still, i am not refilling this last barrel now. I do plan on taking it halfway apart, scrape and rechar and see if it holds up. not being great with working with wood we'll see how it goes.
The bung hole on 3 of my 4 barrels is only about a 1/2 inch. it would be difficult to jam chared stick in them.

[Twisted Brick]

Would be a perfect time to pop some sticks in there when you re-assemble it.

[Ridgeback816]

Is it worth trying to take apart and rechar a small 5 liter barrel? About a year ago I purchased a 5 liter barrel to play with and I feel like it went very well I started with a rye whiskey in there for 3 months (then it went to mason jars with staves) then I refilled with bourbon for 7 months I am about to move the bourbon to glass and I wondering if it is worth it especially since the angels share was so high. The other factor is that I have since gotten a bigger pot so I should be able to get 14 liters of finished product I am leaning towards new 5 gallon barrel and just re charing the staves but I would love to get some other opinions