Stripping still to doubler/thumper - ideas and questions.

[tommysb]

I was recently reading these (light) articles -
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-reaso ... -pot-still
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-reaso ... lumn-still

I was already aware of the Coffey style still with 2 columns - a stripping column feeding into a another plated (rectifying) column, on where each plate is a 'takeoff' for components with different boiling point/purity etc etc. The 'cuts' are made by taking off products from different points on the still.

The articles claim that the Coffey still makes higher proof, lighter flavoured products, but in the US, they DON'T use the same setup - instead referencing a BEER STILL.
Some overview of the process was here:
https://alchemistcabinet.wordpress.com/ ... ng-pot-vs/

My understanding is that this BEER STILL is a column which feeds into a DOUBLER or thumper or REBOILER. I've seen a similar set up in this thread viewtopic.php?t=86417 but despite Larry's explanation - I am still not sure what happens with the doubler - particularly if the doubler goes before or after the rectifying column.

Anyway - I am trying to understand how the doublers work in this 'american style' still setup. I had the idea that if it was loaded with wash then you could make cuts on the output in somewhat the same way that you would on a conventional thumper setup (I have no experience with thumpers).

Would something like the following setup work? Is it anything like the 'american' style beer stills?

In this set up you can get the high feed rate of a stripping still, but also have some refinement/cuts, so not have to collect low wines (which are usually high ABV, 50+ from a stripping column), and re-run.

The disadvantages:
Would have to stop from time to time and either empty/reload the thumper.
When you switch off the stripping column, there would be alcohol left in the thumper. This could be overcome by switching to a steam only feed for 'switch off'.

Another idea - could have 2 thumpers, and switch between them, to keep production continuous.

Really hoping Larry can chime in as I think he will have some good insights on pros/cons of this kind of set up!

[drmiller100]

Your system would work.

I found it easier to put a packed reflux column above the beer insertion point.

My version is described in the alcohol as a fuel section.

[tommysb]

What was your aim DrMiller? I am guessing you are going for highest purity ABV for fuel right?

I am wondering about how to make cuts on the continuous still, or possibly - on the home scale, to reduce the high level of engineering required to make a continuous column where you can make cuts for whiskey or other more highly flavoured spirits.

[Bolverk]

It's its simplest form yes what you have will work, but there is a LOT to it.

BTW there's a whole sub forum for continous stripping stills these have been discussed at length.
viewforum.php?f=109

There are a lot of threads here on HD, several on SD that are very good, and a handful on ADI.

I dont know if there is any specific "beer still" definition but you tend to see the vendom type called a beer still, where it has stripping plates below the beer feed and rectifying plates above the vapor then feeds into a doubler (sometimes as vapor other times as a liquid)

You'll get a lot of people that say you can and can't make cuts on a continous feed but SD and several others clearly make cuts. Most commonly via the rectifying section working with liquid management style take off for hearts and vapor management for heads or the vendome style where they have a precision temp controlled first condenser that only condenses heavier vapors ie hearts/tails and vents heads through a fire arrestor. Here's a pic of the micthers as an example of a "beer still"

To your question in a vendome setup the doubler is not a thumper it is actively heated with steam coil so it's a doubler still, it acts acts as a tails trap. You could put an over flow on it and dump it back in your beer well to be run back though the stripping column.

Just a heads up in case you haven't noticed yet... this a super deep rabbit hole and lots of people have tried it on a small hobby scale and failed or given up because the benefits just arent there for us at a hobby scale for a rectifying column. I wholly support using one as a stripping still if you can figure out the power and feed rate. I was actively working on one for a long time but I kinda changed directions... I'll eventually come back to the project.

[drmiller100]

What was your aim DrMiller? I am guessing you are going for highest purity ABV for fuel right?

I am wondering about how to make cuts on the continuous still, or possibly - on the home scale, to reduce the high level of engineering required to make a continuous column where you can make cuts for whiskey or other more highly flavoured spirits.

Yes I was going for azeo.

You can't make cuts on a continuous still. It is continuous.

You could design it to pull a certain percentage for flavor which is what you are doing.
But I don't think you can cut the heads easily.

[tommysb]

To your question in a vendome setup the doubler is not a thumper it is actively heated with steam coil so it's a doubler still, it acts acts as a tails trap. You could put an over flow on it and dump it back in your beer well to be run back though the stripping column.

Thanks Bolverk - I had come across this Vandome diagram before, and this is probably at the heart of the confusion for me. What's going on with the doubler still, how is it run, and how do you feed and run a 'batch' process from a continuous one?

From what I can understand in the diagram - the output of the column is condensed, and goes to the Tail box, and/or the low wine tank.

Is effect - are the low wines from the column just collected in the low wines tank until there is enough to run a 'normal' pot style distillation?

The High wines that I see - are what we might call some 'feints' from this pot distillation which are added back in with the low wines for future pot runs?

[Bolverk]

Thanks Bolverk - I had come across this Vandome diagram before, and this is probably at the heart of the confusion for me. What's going on with the doubler still, how is it run, and how do you feed and run a 'batch' process from a continuous one?

From what I can understand in the diagram - the output of the column is condensed, and goes to the Tail box, and/or the low wine tank.

Is effect - are the low wines from the column just collected in the low wines tank until there is enough to run a 'normal' pot style distillation?

The High wines that I see - are what we might call some 'feints' from this pot distillation which are added back in with the low wines for future pot runs?

My understanding and I'm 100% prepared to be wrong...

With the micthers beer still what comes over to the doubler is going to be mostly hearts with just a little heads and tails. Most of the bottoms (tails) are stripped out in the column, and most of the heads are vented through the low wines condenser so it's already a cleaner version of what we'd call low wines from a pot still. From here they are reboiled in what would basically be just a basic pot still (and while they are connected they are run totally differently). So from the doubler still the vapor will go through the high wines condenser (more heads will be vented off through the fire arrestor) and hearts are collected in the high wine box (tails get left in the boiler for recycling).

The low wines could be run directly to the doubler as a part of the the continuous system or collected in the tank and run in a different traditional batch system or saved to be run again, I think it just depends on the operator and what they are trying to make.

In my opinion high wines in this case would not be feints... they would be a product that could be good for barreling or running again in another batch process. I think of this use of high wine in the same way they are used in Irish whiskey where they have already been double distilled and could be drinkable as is, or like in an irish they are triple distilled. Again I think this is entirely up to how the operator has the setup tuned and what the desired final product is supposed to be.

[Tōtōchtin]

Thanks Bolverk - I had come across this Vandome diagram before, and this is probably at the heart of the confusion for me. What's going on with the doubler still, how is it run, and how do you feed and run a 'batch' process from a continuous one?

From what I can understand in the diagram - the output of the column is condensed, and goes to the Tail box, and/or the low wine tank.

Is effect - are the low wines from the column just collected in the low wines tank until there is enough to run a 'normal' pot style distillation?

The High wines that I see - are what we might call some 'feints' from this pot distillation which are added back in with the low wines for future pot runs?

My understanding and I'm 100% prepared to be wrong...

With the micthers beer still what comes over to the doubler is going to be mostly hearts with just a little heads and tails. Most of the bottoms (tails) are stripped out in the column, and most of the heads are vented through the low wines condenser so it's already a cleaner version of what we'd call low wines from a pot still. From here they are reboiled in what would basically be just a basic pot still (and while they are connected they are run totally differently). So from the doubler still the vapor will go through the high wines condenser (more heads will be vented off through the fire arrestor) and hearts are collected in the high wine box (tails get left in the boiler for recycling).

The low wines could be run directly to the doubler as a part of the the continuous system or collected in the tank and run in a different traditional batch system or saved to be run again, I think it just depends on the operator and what they are trying to make.

In my opinion high wines in this case would not be feints... they would be a product that could be good for barreling or running again in another batch process. I think of this use of high wine in the same way they are used in Irish whiskey where they have already been double distilled and could be drinkable as is, or like in an irish they are triple distilled. Again I think this is entirely up to how the operator has the setup tuned and what the desired final product is supposed to be.

Bolverk,
Your diagram you put up I would have thought the 2 cylinders between the condensors would be located at the top to vent the vapor of heads. I thought they were lighter and would stay higher up. If I read this right, (and I feel I'm wrong looking at this) the vapors are condensed then reevaporated in those cylinders and the exhausted thru those arrestors.
Tōtō

[Bolverk]

Bolverk,
Your diagram you put up I would have thought the 2 cylinders between the condensors would be located at the top to vent the vapor of heads. I thought they were lighter and would stay higher up. If I read this right, (and I feel I'm wrong looking at this) the vapors are condensed then reevaporated in those cylinders and the exhausted thru those arrestors.
Tōtō

Funny enough I thought the exact same thing when someone explained it to me, but no the vents are down closer to the bottom of the condenser so that heavier boilers condense first and the heads are left as as a gas to be pushed out the FA. Heads may boil first but they also condense last.

If the the temp of the condenser is kept at say 170f (just using a temp as an example I don't know if this is the actual temp they use) so everything that boils at higher than 170 would turn back to a liquid, everything that boils lower than 170f would remain vapor.

This is why its a doubler and not a thumper, because the low wines you want is recondesed back into a liquid, and therefore will need to be reboiled into vapor again to make your next distillation.

Cuts aren't made in the traditional sense (batch) but you get a degree/s of separation through selective condensing and reboiling of desirable fractions.

[drmiller100]

Bolverk,
Your diagram you put up I would have thought the 2 cylinders between the condensors would be located at the top to vent the vapor of heads. I thought they were lighter and would stay higher up. If I read this right, (and I feel I'm wrong looking at this) the vapors are condensed then reevaporated in those cylinders and the exhausted thru those arrestors.
Tōtō

Funny enough I thought the exact same thing when someone explained it to me, but no the vents are down closer to the bottom of the condenser so that heavier boilers condense first and the heads are left as as a gas to be pushed out the FA. Heads may boil first but they also condense last.

If the the temp of the condenser is kept at say 170f (just using a temp as an example I don't know if this is the actual temp they use) so everything that boils at higher than 170 would turn back to a liquid, everything that boils lower than 170f would remain vapor.

This is why its a doubler and not a thumper, because the low wines you want is recondesed back into a liquid, and therefore will need to be reboiled into vapor again to make your next distillation.

Cuts aren't made in the traditional sense (batch) but you get a degree/s of separation through selective condensing and reboiling of desirable fractions.

That isn't how it works. In any still you can't just create a magic zone where it is 170.

That is why reflux.
Also if you don't get liquid out of your doubler it will just fill up with water until it doesn't double. I believe it needs to drain back down the column but I've never used a double and defer to those with practical knowledge

[Bolverk]

That isn't how it works. In any still you can't just create a magic zone where it is 170.

That is why reflux.
Also if you don't get liquid out of your doubler it will just fill up with water until it doesn't double. I believe it needs to drain back down the column but I've never used a double and defer to those with practical knowledge

Dude, As usual you and I are talking about different things...
Maybe stick to the fuel sub-forum because you constantly conflate how to make booze and fuel

I've studied the drawings and spoken directly with people that run vendomes continous stills professionally.