TTB/ABC questions for licensed distillers.

[fiery creations]

Hi. I have been unable to get ahold of anyone or get a call back for weeks for what is required for a distillery as far as code goes (fire suppression systems etc.).

I found a commercial property I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on. But I have a few questions I can't seem to find answers on. I'm terrified of signing a 2 year lease on something that I can't get city planning or anyone else to even hint will be approved or not.


If you go under, does TTB/ABC require you to destroy or get rid of your still in any way? Say I have a bunch of alcohol I've paid taxes on that is ageing. Does that all get taken or is it mine to keep? This is a big step and risk and the thought of losing all the equipment and product on top of it sucks.

Roughly how long is the process from federal down to state? I'm aware that may vary a bit state to state. I'm just trying to figure out how long I have to drown in rent for a stale property before I can even start running it.

How do they keep track of the amount of proof gallons you're being taxed on? Is it self reported?


Thanks.


ETA a few more details.

I would be extremely happy to break even and keep the lights on. I'm not looking to make a profit in the near future. Right now my (home) bills are able to be paid regardless. I would be running some pretty small equipment as far as commercial distilleries go. If this costs me money I'm ok with it, as long as I don't go into massive debt. Rent is $950/mo for the property. I would think that wouldn't be super hard to at least mostly cover but I could be way off here.

[Yummyrum]

Hey I’ll give you a bump .
Have a read of some of the topics in this Commercial section of the forum .

You’re not the first to ask .
From what I’ve read about it over the years , you should consider doing a Distillers course .They are all about bringing you up to speed on what is required by the TTB and how to go about it . You’ll learn about the absolutely hideous paper trail and accountability you have , how long you’ll spend in jail if you break the laws and what laws not to break .

You’ll learn all about the requirements for Bond storage etc .

After acquainting you with all the boring paperwork stuff ( which apparently you’ll spend more time doing than you think ) the course will teach you a little about how to actually run a still .

Good luck .

[fiery creations]

Hey I’ll give you a bump .
Have a read of some of the topics in this Commercial section of the forum .

You’re not the first to ask .
From what I’ve read about it over the years , you should consider doing a Distillers course .They are all about bringing you up to speed on what is required by the TTB and how to go about it . You’ll learn about the absolutely hideous paper trail and accountability you have , how long you’ll spend in jail if you break the laws and what laws not to break .

You’ll learn all about the requirements for Bond storage etc .

After acquainting you with all the boring paperwork stuff ( which apparently you’ll spend more time doing than you think ) the course will teach you a little about how to actually run a still .

Good luck .

Thanks! Is there a go to course? My head is swimming from the weeks of browsing through the insane amount of specifics with licensing and I am definitely having trouble tying it all together to even make a plan of action.


From an extremely crude write up factoring in overhead, tax per proof gallon, and costs to produce, it sounds like I only need to sell 21 gallons a month to stay alive. That doesn't sound hard to me but I've never tried to sell 21 gallons

[IAmPistolPete]

It's one thing to spend money on the hobby, but you ought to at least be responsible enough to work out a business plan, aside from the legal tangles. Along with the physical space, you need to figure raw materials & material handling, utilities, storage vessels, equipment maintenance & cleaning, packaging, manufacturing time, design & marketing, distribution, etc etc etc. All that will give you an idea if you have a market for your product at your price.

"massive debt" is subjective. In the end, like most of us, you may decide that it's just simpler to set up in the shed out back & find other ways to waste money while sipping on some homemade.

[IAmPistolPete]

Also, the ADI forums will likely have much more experience & info than you will get here.

https://adiforums.com

[fiery creations]

I factored all that into my 21 gallons per month to stay afloat. I’m sure I would work that down to even less buying in bulk and sourcing better.

Also, the ADI forums will likely have much more experience & info than you will get here.

https://adiforums.com

Thanks! I had no idea about that site.

[HDNB]

i'm in Canada, so it's different, but similar.

Here, the municipality determines building safety codes. it all has to do with zoning and permitted/discretionary use. then the type of building, proximity to neighbours. usually they allow you to write a "letter of intent" to get answers on requirements once the know what you are doing, expected intensity and such they can tell you what to expect.

the province (state) makes a license for manufacture and have to have federal and municipal approvals to get...it's like herding cats. usually just a fee and formalities they don't really have say on the building, moreso they want to be advised of operations so they can estimate and keep tabs on the tax you should be producing. it's like a business license, if you meet all the requirements, you'll get it.

the feds (so ttb/abc in your world) are simply a tax authority. since you can have a bonded warehouse (for the price of a bond) say 500 bucks to guarantee 50K of tax payable...you don't actually pay tax until you sell the product. your location will define exactly what that looks like.
being that you would have care and control of a large amount of tax resource, they will require you prove care and control of the premise where the booze is (lease or own) in a bond, they will want to do a financial background check to make sure you can afford to meet obligations and then also a criminal check, since again, you're caring and controlling a large amount of "their" money.
you also will need to show them municipal and state approvals to get federal approval (herding cats again) if you can't prove finances or have a criminal record, they will not approve you, which in turn will negate the ability to get the other approvals.

[HDNB]

some of the other questions:

most jurisdictions have laws on the amount of alcohol you can have in your possession. even in bottles, purchased at retail from a store. You need a bulk license to buy/sell/trade bulk. (ttb bonded warehouse) you normally would not pay taxes until it leaves the bond, so your tax-paid question is moot, unless you wanted to pay the taxes to remove it from bond....but then bulk possession laws would have to be satisfied.
so yes, they would take/destroy liquor in forfeiture. there is also "clearance bins" in state distribution for slow moving clearance products, so if you could bottle potable liquor under your license and get it into distribution at a crazy low price, it would sell. probably a couple more solutions i don't know about.

the still and equipment, they would likely give you time to liquidate to other producers.

you are required to self report all bulk material. grain, NGS, and blends. for your own production the input grains report is balanced against the output and needs to make sense or you get audited. each run is documented, how much grain/yeast/water/time, and result. each spirit run is equally documented, as is each barrel entry. you report first to warehouse license (in bond), then again to spirits license (out of bond / tax paid) and they have to match....or you get audited. then you report to the state license and they want to know everything all over again...if it doesn't match....you get audited.
if they even suspect you are cheating them, they suspend your license, estimate the tax payable, apply fines and penalties and then if you cannot prove, through your own record keeping, to their satisfaction that you are innocent and all is reported... they take away your license.
if they can prove you're cheating, expect to lose a few birthdays to the prison system. the government really, really likes their tax and takes it as serious as a heart attack.

[fiery creations]

What an absolute shit show of government fuckery. Leaving with “their” money

Thanks for the replies. It’s far worse than I thought, it seems. I’m more than willing to pay them “their” money and jump through some hoops… but the possible life altering criminal charges for a paper mistake and amount of apparent time needed to keep them happy…. I think I’m good.

Just add it to the list of good things the government ruined.

[Morning Wood]

We will be opening by end of year, and I have learned that having the help of an attorney that specializes in ABC law is a must, it cost money, but I
am not a lawyer and don't have the time to try and read and understand it all. I would also check with some local authorities as they sometimes
are more of an issue than the FEDS, specifically your fire marshal. The reporting/tax paperwork can be overwhelming for sure, there are a few software programs, but again they are not cheap. The one thing my partner and I have learned is that it takes some money, you can do it without alot, but plan on spending where it counts. As far as schools. I attended the 6 day distilling course in Kentucky at Moonshine University. I learned quite a bit, but was also pleased that I already knew a bit as well. Good Luck, its been done and can be done, if its what you want, don't quit, don't give up, work your ass
off and it will happen.

Cheers,

p.s. ADI forums are a great resource for the professional leap.