Rate My Column

[Stonecutter]

I’m rich in the art of making good tasting Hooch.
I’m pretty terrible at the science of it.

You certainly are very assertive for being so wrong.

How about you make 10 or 15 gallons of azeo before you continue denigrating the science of distillation.

I am poor at the art of making good tasting hooch but I've made and run a lot of stills and also pretty good at the science of it.

My ego aside regarding tasteful hooch. I’m certainly not asserting that my way is the best.
As stated before I’m no expert in running reflux columns and my understanding of the science behind the highly sought after “azeo” is lacking to say the least.
Call it call unscientific and bass-ackwards but I won’t be needing or using a thermometer with my finicky CCVM rig.

[Deplorable]

#1- do you think the length above the Tee is too great?

12" looks about right, I wouldn't go any shorter than that.

Really? Mine is 8". Just long enough to keep the coil fully enclosed with the "gate" wide open, but short enough to be able to fully close the gate and stop all vapor flow. I'd think the length of your condenser housing would depend on how efficient your condenser is, and how long it is.
Make sure its short enough that your RC can return 100% of the vapor to the column while reaching equilibrium, but long enough to house all of the coils when wide open.

[drmiller100]

I’m rich in the art of making good tasting Hooch.
I’m pretty terrible at the science of it.

You certainly are very assertive for being so wrong.

How about you make 10 or 15 gallons of azeo before you continue denigrating the science of distillation.

I am poor at the art of making good tasting hooch but I've made and run a lot of stills and also pretty good at the science of it.

My ego aside regarding tasteful hooch. I’m certainly not asserting that my way is the best.
As stated before I’m no expert in running reflux columns and my understanding of the science behind the highly sought after “azeo” is lacking to say the least.
Call it call unscientific and bass-ackwards but I won’t be needing or using a thermometer with my finicky CCVM rig.

Would you like to learn? For any given alcohol water mixture it will have a certain boiling point. The vapor coming off that boiling mixture will have that exact same temperature.
Likewise for a given barometric pressure azeo will have a certain condensing temperature.
If we measure the temp of the vapor below the condenser we can know the alcohol concentration and adjust things BEFORE it gets collected and smears.

Maybe if you had a temp gauge or two on your finicky ccvm rig you could better understand what is going on.

[Stonecutter]

I’d have to care about the specifics of my “mixture”. Then I’d have t to figure the condensing temperature given my local barometric pressure and hope that my distillation system wasn’t negating my thermometer readings. Nah, I’m good. Thanks though
Now I’ve derailed this topic enough

[drmiller100]

I’d have to care about the specifics of my “given alcohol volume”. Then I’d have t to figure the condensing temperature given my local barometric pressure and hope that my distillation system wasn’t negating my thermometer readings. Nah, I’m good. Thanks though
Now I’ve derailed this topic enough

Like I said twice above run your column full reflux and you will KNOW the azeo temp at your place that specific day.

[shadylane]

Call it call unscientific and bass-ackwards but I won’t be needing or using a thermometer with my finicky CCVM rig.

+1 I run the still based on takeoff rate.

[Salt Must Flow]

Steelers_Stiller rest assured that having a thermometer or thermowell in the vapor takeoff side of your tee (just before the clamp) is where a thermometer is the most beneficial place. Once vapor starts to rise up the column the temp will rise. After a while you'll notice that the temp stabilizes as the column stabilizes. Once you start slowly taking off foreshots you'll see the temp shift a little which is normal. Later the temp will remain the same throughout the entire run right up until tails hits. You know you're into tails once the temp rises a few 1/10th degrees F and stays ... and soon will continue rising.

Other than that, I have absolutely no need for a thermometer at all with my 3" VM still. Technically I could run my still forever without that thermometer because I know how my still will behave every time I run it. It's just nice to be able to look up and get confirmation.

Even if a thermometer could tell you what proof or % ABV it is producing, it's absolutely useless because any decent reflux column should be producing 95%+ ABV from start to finish anyway.

[shadylane]

What do my questions have to do with running a reflux still at azeo?

I can answer that question.
You're thinking in terms of making fuel instead of neutral spirits.

[drmiller100]

What do my questions have to do with running a reflux still at azeo?

I can answer that question.
You're thinking in terms of making fuel instead of neutral spirits.

Are they different? Does the little etoh molecules react differently based on intended purpose?

Personally I like knowing my setup is optimized.to run as efficiently and quickly as it can.

[Salt Must Flow]

Even if a thermometer could tell you what proof or % ABV it is producing, it's absolutely useless because any decent reflux column should be producing 95%+ ABV from start to finish anyway.

[OtisT]

I have to agree with those that say that the circled spot is bad placement for the thermometer. The horizontal section of the tee is the best spot.

With the circled position….
1) potential issue with falling liquid reflux and messing with your vapor temp reading.
2) potential issue with liquid bubbling/spitting up from the packing just below it and messing with your actual vapor temp reading.
3) if you are not packing that thing right up to the top of the column section in question, you are not getting all the height you can out of it. I.e. wasted space.
4) That circled placement would also mandate that this specific piece of column must be the very top of your packed column. This is bad because, as someone said, “dude wants modular”. A temp probe in the takeoff tee will always be in the right place regardless of future height adjustments by changing packed sections.

[drmiller100]

Even if a thermometer could tell you what proof or % ABV it is producing, it's absolutely useless because any decent reflux column should be producing 95%+ ABV from start to finish anyway.

I invite you to run a reflux column and get 95 percent.

[Yummyrum]

My two cents in thermo placement is that on a VM , the side Tee would be the best place where it is shielded from both reflux and splatters from top of packing .

Problem is that on a CCVM configuration when the coil is lowered to allow 100% reflux , there is no vapour in that area to measure . So any reading during full reflux is meaningless. To be honest , waiting to see the temp stabilise during initial full reflux is about the only thing I used my thermometer for .

So iff’n that is a consideration , then the thermo has to go below the lowest position of the RC coil to be in the vapour zone .
It then is directly under the reflux rain off the RC and needs a hood over it to prevent the reflux stuffing the reading .

This position still makes it susceptible to splash up from the top of the packing unless a void of at least 6” or more is present , especially if one is running with a fluidised bed . Infact , even when running with an active fluidised bed , there will be a lot of splashing which can enter the tee , so a void is going to be necessary anyway .

Personally I don’t run using a fluidised bed as I have not found it produced a better product , only serving to cause me more stress while trying to hold the column at a level it does not want to stay at without needing constant readjustment throughout the run .
It also requires a sight-glass to monitor and wastes potential packing height.But thats just my personal opinion on it .

However, during the equalisation period and during fores removal , it is common practice to run at significantly lower power than during hearts , so the packing would not be running in a fluid state and there would be no splashing from the packing so a hooded thermo under the coil would work for monitoring initial equalisation .

[Salt Must Flow]

Even if a thermometer could tell you what proof or % ABV it is producing, it's absolutely useless because any decent reflux column should be producing 95%+ ABV from start to finish anyway.

I invite you to run a reflux column and get 95 percent.

I do and have done more times than I can recall. It's just standard operating procedure and absolutely nothing out of the ordinary.

Are you trying to say something without coming out and actually saying it? What am I missing?

[drmiller100]

My two cents in thermo placement is that on a VM , the side Tee would be the best place where it is shielded from both reflux and splatters from top of packing .

Problem is that on a CCVM configuration when the coil is lowered to allow 100% reflux , there is no vapour in that area to measure . So any reading during full reflux is meaningless. To be honest , waiting to see the temp stabilise during initial full reflux is about the only thing I used my thermometer for .

So iff’n that is a consideration , then the thermo has to go below the lowest position of the RC coil to be in the vapour zone .
It then is directly under the reflux rain off the RC and needs a hood over it to prevent the reflux stuffing the reading .

This position still makes it susceptible to splash up from the top of the packing unless a void of at least 6” or more is present , especially if one is running with a fluidised bed . Infact , even when running with an active fluidised bed , there will be a lot of splashing which can enter the tee , so a void is going to be necessary anyway .

Personally I don’t run using a fluidised bed as I have not found it produced a better product , only serving to cause me more stress while trying to hold the column at a level it does not want to stay at without needing constant readjustment throughout the run .
It also requires a sight-glass to monitor and wastes potential packing height.But thats just my personal opinion on it .

However, during the equalisation period and during fores removal , it is common practice to run at significantly lower power than during hearts , so the packing would not be running in a fluid state and there would be no splashing from the packing so a hooded thermo under the coil would work for monitoring initial equalisation .

Have you personally or anyone you trust witnessed splashing or dripping off the condenser causing inaccurate temp readings?

I have never seen this myself but I respect you.

Also I did not understand a ccvm means you move the upper coil up and down below the side pipe. In that case you will need to measure at the top of the packing.
Seems like a dumb design to me but I admit I was wrong.

[shadylane]

Have you personally or anyone you trust witnessed splashing or dripping off the condenser causing inaccurate temp readings?

Yes, I've intentionally placed probes in what I thought would be a bad location just to see what if...
The false lower temps could make you think azeo.
The probe needs to measure the vapor, not liquid that's been cooled and condensed.

[Stonecutter]

Also I did not understand a ccvm means you move the upper coil up and down below the side pipe. In that case you will need to measure at the top of the packing.
Seems like a dumb design to me but I admit I was wrong.

What was that you’d said,
“You certainly are very assertive for being so wrong”

Now, instead of instantly getting defensive about thermometers without even bothering to realize what kind of setup the OP is using and then claiming to not need to solder joints for modularity while simultaneously boasting about all the stills you’ve built and operated maybe we just take a step back from the cliff edge next time. I stand by my statements, the OP could place that temp probe on top in pot distillation mode so that they could easily get rid of it once they realize how useless it was.

A thermometer is a tool. A tools functionality is based upon its application. A 4’ bubble level can lead you astray if not used correctly.

[Steelers_Stiller]

While you all were arguing over thermometer location and validity I went ahead and soldered a 1/2 female adapter to the side of my tee.

The column is all soldered except the top piece of pipe for the reflux condenser. Once I wind the coil I can cut that piece as short as possible to work with it.

[Stonecutter]

Looking great!
Good luck with it Steelers_Stiller, that thing is going to get you some mighty fine hooch.
Kudos for taking the time to research and build your own.

What do you plan on christening it with?

[Wildcats]

Nice still. Now time to get that thing to work. Thanks for sharing your progress. Cheer's

[Steelers_Stiller]

Thanks for props

Still got some building to do before I'm ready to do my cleaning and sacrificial runs.
I'd like to put a port on the top of the keg.
Need to make a reflux condenser.
Need to build a controller for the element.

Once its all ready to go I'm probably going to start with Shady's Sugar Shine recipe and see what kind of neutral I can produce.

[MooseMan]

Share your experiences once you start to run with it then, I'm sure it will handle well and looks good to me!

[Stonecutter]

Any idea of what kind of packing you’re looking to use. I’m running copper mesh. Many run Lava rock.

[Yummyrum]

Good stuff steeler . Sometimes you just have to make a decision . A thermo there will not read until you raise the Coil enough to let any vapour into the Tee , but from then on in it will do it’s job .

[Salt Must Flow]

^ ^ ^ Yummy is absolutely right. That's another convenience for using a gate valve (or valve) for the vapor take-off making it a VM like Yummy mentioned earlier on. If that were done, the thermometer would always read the vapor take-off temp during stabilization of the column as well as while taking off product.

[shadylane]

Looking good Steelers_Stiller,

[Salt Must Flow]

Not that you require a thermometer, but if you really want to know what's going on with the vapor temp, you'll need a digital thermometer that reads in 1/10th degree resolution. That means a thermometer that can read like 170.1F. Everything that happens during a spirit run occurs within 1/10th degrees. Like I said, you do not require a thermometer, but it does provide confirmation. An analog thermometer like you have will not provide any information at all. If you do not understand, please ask.

[Stonecutter]

Thanks for props

Still got some building to do before I'm ready to do my cleaning and sacrificial runs.
I'd like to put a port on the top of the keg.
Need to make a reflux condenser.
Need to build a controller for the element.

Once its all ready to go I'm probably going to start with Shady's Sugar Shine recipe and see what kind of neutral I can produce.

I think you’ll be happy with Shady’s Sugar Shine recipe. Pretty fool proof.
Looking forward to seeing your progress.
See you down the rabbit hole Friend.

[Steelers_Stiller]

I like it . Most of my stuff is modular 2” as well .
I personally don’t see the need for the horizontal extension , but , if you could manage to sub it out for a Valve , you would have a VM

Many like CCVM , but I’m a straight VM fan .

But iff’n you were to go VM , you’d be better off with a 3/4” - 1” ball valve as it would be way easier to adjust than a 2” .

I agree that the 12” top module would be a great riser in Pot still setup . Removing and repacking is a pain in the arse if you don’t need to . Having said that , some experiments I did showed that an insulated packed riser had little difference over an unpacked one .

EDIT : some of my comments might be cross purposed with your other topic . “Rate my Liebig”
viewtopic.php?p=7774371#p7774371

I had to step away from this column project for awhile but I'm finally back to it and intend to finish it!

I took your advice about a gate valve to be able to run it as a VM still. Found a 3/4" S.S valve to install just after the Tee.
That brings me back again to questioning the reflux condenser. I have a 20' coil of 1/4" OD copper tube and plan to wind a double helix coil.
Questions are:
1. How long should this reflux coil be? I see super confusing threads with math formulas and it seems like it should be 10" or more but than I read where guys are using 8" coils with a 5kW heating element.
2. How far above the horizontal takeoff should the coil be?
3. How tightly should the reflux condenser fit inside the column? I have a 1.5" OD pipe I can use as a mandrel. I tested some scrap condenser tubing and it is possible to fit it inside the column (VERY TIGHT) but I CANNOT slide it thru the tri clamp ferrule. This is why I am asking how close to the takeoff arm should the coil be. If it can be above the ferrule, I can proceed with what I have.

VM Conversion.jpg

I decided to pack the column with stainless steel scrubbers. Bought 3M Scotch brite #84 from Amazon. A 12 pack was around $18.

The beer keg boiler is finally done. I'll post some pics in my other thread about that.

The liebig PC was reconfigured a bit to better work with the gate valve.

About the only thing left is finish up this reflux condenser and the spool that will contain it.

[Tammuz]

What do you see in ccvm vs vm? You solder well, it would seem a reflux condenser would save you a lot of climbing up and down. That's just 12" of pipe and 2 ferrules more.