Why CCVM?

[Bolverk]

Howdy all,

I see all these CCVM builds and I'm curious what the draw is... you either go from 0 or 50-100% reflux, the dimroth condensers look like a pain in the ass to build, and the whole dropping the coil down into the vapor path seems again like a pain in the ass. I can't think of a single professional distillery running a CCVM. A standard CM with inline dephleg seems so much easier, is adjustable from minimal reflux (id say 0-100 but even an empty dephleg is going to have a little reflux) up to 100%.

What's the draw to these designs? I'm clearly missing something. Please understand, I'm not talking shit, I honestly don't understand why someone would build one.

Best,

Edited for typo

[OtisT]

As I recall it, the early draw of the CCVM was that they did not require a valve, which can be a relatively expensive part. I personally don’t think that the saving in valve cost is worth the negatives of the design that you point out. I love my VM.

[ckdistills]

For me, the point of a CCVM was the low cost and easy build. TC spool, a tee, an elbow, CSST and you're up and running using the CSST coil as a reflux condenser and as a product condenser. T I haven't actually done reflux runs yet so this is all theoretical at this point. But, as I've gotten more experienced with the pot still and thinking about/imagining reflux runs, I've been thinking that I'd like to add a valve instead of relying on raising/lowering the coil for those same ease of use reasons you list Bolverk. Those valves are expensive though, especially at larger sizes. I would probably add a 1" valve on my 2" column, which does change minimum reflux rate from 2:1 to 3:1 (is that math right?) and keep the CSST reflux coil which works just fine.

[The Booze Pipe]

You’re not wrong Bolverk, the CCVM is a pain to operate. In my opinion it’s a poor man’s vapor management head. Like OtisT pointed out those valves are spendy. So if you are on a budget, it’s a great option really, they do work just fine. I built one, but will be converting it to the VM.

[Bolverk]

I have no doubt at one point needle valves were pretty spendy, but hell you can get them on Amazon or ebay for like $20-25

Then get a Chinese 2" triclamp dephleg for like $60 on eBay.. probably less on aliexpress.

[Salt Must Flow]

Howdy all,

I see all these CCVM builds and I'm curious what the draw is... you either go from 0 or 50-100% reflux, the dimroth condensers look like a pain in the ass to build, and the whole dropping the coil down into the vapor path seems again like a pain in the ass. I can't think of a single professional distillery running a CCVM. A standard VM with inline dephleg seems so much easier, is adjustable from minimal reflux (id say 0-100 but even an empty dephleg is going to have a little reflux) up to 100%.

What's the draw to these designs? I'm clearly missing something. Please understand, I'm not talking shit, I honestly don't understand why someone would build one.

Best,

Is it possible that you're confusing VM with CM? CM (cooling management) stills use a dephlegmator. CM stills work by adjusting the amount of water that flows through the dephlegmator which controls how much vapor slips past and condensed by the product condenser. CM stills are sensitive to fluctuations in water pressure and flow rate.

I agree that VM is much more appealing than CCVM in my opinion. VM allows for very precise and repeatable control of the take-off rate using a gate valve. To me, CCVM stills seem incomplete, like a project waiting to be completed. I suspect their popularity is due to YouTube. VM and CCVM stills are not sensitive to fluctuations in water flow or pressure like CM stills are. They operate steady from start to finish with the least amount of fiddling around than any other reflux design I can think of.

[Bolverk]

Howdy all,

I see all these CCVM builds and I'm curious what the draw is... you either go from 0 or 50-100% reflux, the dimroth condensers look like a pain in the ass to build, and the whole dropping the coil down into the vapor path seems again like a pain in the ass. I can't think of a single professional distillery running a CCVM. A standard VM with inline dephleg seems so much easier, is adjustable from minimal reflux (id say 0-100 but even an empty dephleg is going to have a little reflux) up to 100%.

What's the draw to these designs? I'm clearly missing something. Please understand, I'm not talking shit, I honestly don't understand why someone would build one.

Best,

Is it possible that you're confusing VM with CM? CM (cooling management) stills use a dephlegmator. CM stills work by adjusting the amount of water that flows through the dephlegmator which controls how much vapor slips past and condensed by the product condenser. CM stills are sensitive to fluctuations in water pressure and flow rate.

I agree that VM is much more appealing than CCVM in my opinion. VM allows for very precise and repeatable control of the take-off rate using a gate valve. To me, CCVM stills seem incomplete, like a project waiting to be completed. I suspect their popularity is due to YouTube. VM and CCVM stills are not sensitive to fluctuations in water flow or pressure like CM stills are. They operate steady from start to finish with the least amount of fiddling around than any other reflux design I can think of.

Yes that was a typo, I did mean CM

[Salt Must Flow]

I have no doubt at one point needle valves were pretty spendy, but hell you can get them on Amazon or ebay for like $20-25

Then get a Chinese 2" triclamp dephleg for like $60 on eBay.. probably less on aliexpress.

Needle valves are typically used with LM (liquid management) stills. VM stills typically use a gate valve though some do use ball valves.

You're right though, the price of stainless valves have gone down over the years. Even well over a decade, I found 1" stainless a couple of gate valves for around $20-$25, but that was a bargain. The common price was actually around $80 back then.

[Bolverk]

Needle or gate vales to control water flow

[Demy]

Many ways to obtain the same result... I have a CCVM and I am very happy with it, I have inserted a simple screw lifting system and I adjust it very precisely. The valves are expensive and heavier but more precise.. pros and cons in both cases ...but let's not call it a poor system..it has helped many people to obtain excellent products and now suddenly it is "for poor people".. But the inventor was intelligent.

[Bolverk]

Many ways to obtain the same result... I have a CCVM and I am very happy with it, I have inserted a simple screw lifting system and I adjust it very precisely. The valves are expensive and heavier but more precise.. pros and cons in both cases ...but let's not call it a poor system..it has helped many people to obtain excellent products and now suddenly it is "for poor people".. But the inventor was intelligent.

I've seen a pic of your setup, that screw mechanism is clever.

There was no judgment in my question, I have no doubt a lot of great booze has been made with a CCVM. I guess I hadn't put together that the valve price was that much more back then and the idea makes sense given that fact.

[ckdistills]

I agree that VM is much more appealing than CCVM in my opinion. VM allows for very precise and repeatable control of the take-off rate using a gate valve. To me, CCVM stills seem incomplete, like a project waiting to be completed. I suspect their popularity is due to YouTube. VM and CCVM stills are not sensitive to fluctuations in water flow or pressure like CM stills are. They operate steady from start to finish with the least amount of fiddling around than any other reflux design I can think of.

Oh - yea gate valve for the win there. I had been pricing 1" stainless needle valves.

[ckdistills]

Many ways to obtain the same result... I have a CCVM and I am very happy with it, I have inserted a simple screw lifting system and I adjust it very precisely. The valves are expensive and heavier but more precise.. pros and cons in both cases ...but let's not call it a poor system..it has helped many people to obtain excellent products and now suddenly it is "for poor people".. But the inventor was intelligent.

Yea, I've paid attention to your lifting system too. Clever.

[kennstminet]

Bolverk
In your opening post, you preferred a CM over a CCVM.
Have you used a CM with a tall column to produce neutral with approx. 96 %abv?
I have tried it and found it difficult to operate.

[kimbodious]

Why? My modular CCVM is brilliant for making high purity neutral and that is the only reason I run it. I reconfigure the components for a pot still when I want to make anything else. Prior to this I ran CM and VM reflux column stills, IMHO the CCVM is by far the simplest to operate. There is a link to a photo of my CCVM and pot still in my signature.

Dimroth condenser, doesn’t have to be? I use a shotgun condenser for my product condenser and before that a liebig.

I change the position of the reflux condenser only two times from the initial lowest setting. I move it maybe an inch upwards to bleed off fores etc and up about three inches more for the remainder of the run.

Water flow is set and forget once you have got sufficient cooling to maintain the system in total equilibrium. My domestic water supply does not suffer fluctuations in pressure. Water fluctuations must be an issue for any still that involves reflux.

Lots of opinions and misinformation about CCVMs around from people who have never owned or operated one, I don’t understand why?

[Bolverk]

Bolverk
In your opening post, you preferred a CM over a CCVM.
Have you used a CM with a tall column to produce neutral with approx. 96 %abv?
I have tried it and found it difficult to operate.

No, I'm not a neutral guy... if a ccvm is better for neutral then that certainly a reason to go in that direction.

[Saltbush Bill]

I don't think anyone has ever claimed them to be better than any other still type.
Their attraction as it see it is, simplicity of build as well as being cheaper.
They are also quite versatile and can be run from full reflux right through to pot still mode.
Also not everybody wants to just buy cheap Chinese off the shelf stainless parts and then just clamp the whole thing together.

[Sporacle]

Cheap, simple and effective.

[Deplorable]

For me, it was the fastest, least expensive way to neutral.
I only use it once or twice a year to run my whiskey feints. I don't drink much vodka or make a lot of stuff that requires high proof spirits, so why spend the money to build something more?
If you have a stick of copper and you're making a modular pot still there isn't much extra cost to make a CCVM.

[Bolverk]

Thanks all, I appreciate the insight

[bobpratl]

I change the position of the reflux condenser only two times from the initial lowest setting. I move it maybe an inch upwards to bleed off fores etc and up about three inches more for the remainder of the run.

How far down is the bottom of the RC, at its lowest position, from the TEE's takeoff??

[kimbodious]

I change the position of the reflux condenser only two times from the initial lowest setting. I move it maybe an inch upwards to bleed off fores etc and up about three inches more for the remainder of the run.

How far down is the bottom of the RC, at its lowest position, from the TEE's takeoff??

The “tail end” of my RC would extend several inches below the bottom edge of the take off. My CCST RC is best described as a twist rather than a traditional coil

[shadylane]

They are also quite versatile and can be run from full reflux right through to pot still mode.

Salty, are you talking about a CM?
Because a VM or CCVM is only adjustable from around 50 to 100% reflux.
Depending on the cup design a LM can run close to zero reflux aka pot still mode.

[kimbodious]

I can’t see why you couldn’t remove the RC and cap the column if you really wanted to use it as a pot still. Not that I would.

[Saltbush Bill]

Yes your right shady LM only , wasn't thinking correctly when I said CCVM

[MooseMan]

Bolverk
In your opening post, you preferred a CM over a CCVM.
Have you used a CM with a tall column to produce neutral with approx. 96 %abv?
I have tried it and found it difficult to operate.

No, I'm not a neutral guy... if a ccvm is better for neutral then that certainly a reason to go in that direction.

I think that's the most pertinent answer Bolverk.

You wouldn't put together a CCVM for anything other than making neutral.

[Bolverk]

You wouldn't put together a CCVM for anything other than making neutral.

What's better for neutrals CCVM or LM?

[Oatmeal]

The best knife is the one you have when you need to use it...

[OtisT]

I’ll add a few more negatives of a CCVM over a traditional VM that have not been brought up. A CCVM requires more height, due to the need to raise the RC. If you don’t have a lot of height, that could be an issue. The other is that unless you make a fancy electric screw lift or some similar setup, your adjustment location of the CCVM is a foot or more higher than the VM valve, so more likely you will need to climb a ladder to adjust the CCVM.

The additional height requirement rules out this type of still for me.

[MooseMan]

You wouldn't put together a CCVM for anything other than making neutral.

What's better for neutrals CCVM or LM?

I'm not experienced enough to answer that I'm sorry, as I've never run an LM reflux still.

But my 2.5" CCVM makes great neutral at a pretty decent rate, so I'll never change.
We drink, and gift, quite a bit of gin, and I still only have to do approx. 3 neutral runs a year.