Tedd Squirrils opinion on Copper condensers

[Tedd squirrels]

MOD EDIT: I split this off the Coil winding topic as it was totally Off Topic .If it can continue without further bullshit ,that would be great .Otherwise I'm going to Bin it


The condenser coil should never be made of copper. Copper is needed to clean vapors from sulfur and sulfur compounds only when they move upward. Then all the copper salts remain in the cube. As the vapor moves downwards (the condenser coil), the alcohol reacts with copper and verdigris (copper acetate - copper salt of acetic acid) is selected, what is not good for the stomach. Condenser coils should be made of stainless steel, AISI 304-1.4301-S30400, AISI 321-1.4541-S32100.
Otherwise, the final product will have a “hardware smell”

[Wildcats]

The condenser coil should never be made of copper. Copper is needed to clean vapors from sulfur and sulfur compounds only when they move upward. Then all the copper salts remain in the cube. As the vapor moves downwards (the condenser coil), the alcohol reacts with copper and verdigris (copper acetate - copper salt of acetic acid) is selected, what is not good for the stomach. Condenser coils should be made of stainless steel, AISI 304-1.4301-S30400, AISI 321-1.4541-S32100.
Otherwise, the final product will have a “hardware smell”

Never be made of copper you say??? I guess we all been doing it wrong.....

[Tedd squirrels]

I guess we all been doing it wrong.....

Yes, you did everything wrong. And I did it wrong at the beginning, when my entire path was copper. On the copper path, over time, black-green flakes began to fall into my selection. I didn't like it, so I replaced the descending branch of the tract with stainless steel. BLACK SPOTS DISAPPEARED! Thus, this has been proven in practice. And you do as you want, it is your right to dispose of your body and its health - everything is in your hands (and in your head and brain too).
I gave you advice and told you how to do it right. And if all the sheep in the herd go to the wolf for dinner, then you will go too?

[OtisT]

I guess we all been doing it wrong.....

Yes, you did everything wrong. And I did it wrong at the beginning, when my entire path was copper. On the copper path, over time, black-green flakes began to fall into my selection. I didn't like it, so I replaced the descending branch of the tract with stainless steel. BLACK SPOTS DISAPPEARED! Thus, this has been proven in practice. And you do as you want, it is your right to dispose of your body and its health - everything is in your hands (and in your head and brain too).
I gave you advice and told you how to do it right. And if all the sheep in the herd go to the wolf for dinner, then you will go too?

Tedd Squirles. You have a very narrow view as to what you think is right or wrong and being so absolute about what you believe to be right makes you come across as a narcissist and troll. You’ll get a better and more meaningful conversation started here with a little humility.

[Tedd squirrels]

You’ll get a better and more meaningful conversation started here with a little humility.

Black flakes are not meaningful conversation? I didn’t humbly start asking empty questions about cereal, asking why it was like this: help! No, I began to solve the problem myself and solved it without too many questions. And for this I become a troll? Better yet, you yourself carefully study the chemistry of the processes and reactions of copper, alcohol, sulfur compounds; if you figure it out, then you will understand what I am saying.
So, for the sake of meaningful conversation, your task is to find out where the black-green flakes in all-copper equipment come from? And this is not splash water, because the copper alambik is placed on a steam bath (sauna). I know the answer, but you don’t yet.
So explain to us what this is, if you yourself are not a troll?

[Stonecutter]

The condenser coil should never be made of copper. Copper is needed to clean vapors from sulfur and sulfur compounds only when they move upward. Then all the copper salts remain in the cube. As the vapor moves downwards (the condenser coil), the alcohol reacts with copper and verdigris (copper acetate - copper salt of acetic acid) is selected, what is not good for the stomach. Condenser coils should be made of stainless steel, AISI 304-1.4301-S30400, AISI 321-1.4541-S32100.
Otherwise, the final product will have a “hardware smell”

This topic is 99.9% based solely on a copper pre Condenser.
Which turns your whole argument into straight dog shit friend.
See you down the rabbit hole

[Dancing4dan]

The members of this site have worked to put a stop to this kind of interaction. This is also in violation of site rule # 3.

"3 Be polite and courteous. Remember that nobody is perfect and nobody knows everything. We've all got our strengths and limitations, which is why we share information with each other in the first place. Remember that we're all different and nothing is going to change that fact."

We don't need to go down this road again!

[Tedd squirrels]

So, on the downstream path we have a copper coil, which, due to its curved design, is very difficult to clean. In air, copper forms a patina - copper oxides and an outer film in the form of copper carbonate CuCO3. Which then, when the coil is heated, decomposes into copper oxide and carbon dioxide.
The patina is greenish in color, and copper (II) oxide (copper oxide) CuO is the oxide of divalent copper, these are black crystals, under normal conditions they are quite stable, practically insoluble in water.
These black crystals of copper oxide and greenish patina are washed away with alcohol vapor and go to my selection. Yes, I could not give a damn about this, citing the fact that everyone, everyone, everyone in the world has copper equipment and no one suffers from it. But I need to do the extra work of filtering these black crystals to get a beautiful transparent product.
Also, copper oxides, in subtle, delicate tastings, give an unpalatable chemical “equipment taste.”
Yes, if you eat these black flakes you will never die and nothing special will happen to a healthy stomach, but still it’s not entirely pleasant, is it?
So I replaced the downstream copper path with stainless steel. Which is always clean and does not become covered with a copper patina. The flakes disappeared and the copper taste of the equipment also disappeared. A drink with flakes that smells of copper is a FAILURE IN THE WORK OF A DISTILLER. And you scammers started throwing rotten tomatoes at me! For what?!

[Stonecutter]

So, on the downstream path we have a copper coil, which, due to its curved design, is very difficult to clean. A drink with flakes that smells of copper is a FAILURE IN THE WORK OF A DISTILLER. And you scammers started throwing rotten tomatoes at me! For what?!

Difficult to clean you say? Not in the slightest.
A spray with some water just after the run will do the trick.
What’s your “cleaning” protocol? Maybe that’s why your drop smells unappealing. We’re here to help but you’re throwing boulders.

[Stonecutter]

The members of this site have worked to put a stop to this kind of interaction. This is also in violation of site rule # 3.

"3 Be polite and courteous. Remember that nobody is perfect and nobody knows everything. We've all got our strengths and limitations, which is why we share information with each other in the first place. Remember that we're all different and nothing is going to change that fact."

We don't need to go down this road again!

Duly noted D4D. Most of the time I re-articulate the majority of what I’d like to say. I have a lot respect for you and any other member here willing to learn.
I don’t like the smell of BS and I calls it as I see’s it. I’m no expert and I’m not always right and I expect to be called out whenever I’m squeezing some out.
This isn’t a bundt cake forum. I’m prone to having a drink and speaking my mind. If I’m in the wrong I trust I’ll be throttled by the admins.

[MooseMan]

So, on the downstream path we have a copper coil, which, due to its curved design, is very difficult to clean. In air, copper forms a patina - copper oxides and an outer film in the form of copper carbonate CuCO3. Which then, when the coil is heated, decomposes into copper oxide and carbon dioxide.
The patina is greenish in color, and copper (II) oxide (copper oxide) CuO is the oxide of divalent copper, these are black crystals, under normal conditions they are quite stable, practically insoluble in water.
These black crystals of copper oxide and greenish patina are washed away with alcohol vapor and go to my selection. Yes, I could not give a damn about this, citing the fact that everyone, everyone, everyone in the world has copper equipment and no one suffers from it. But I need to do the extra work of filtering these black crystals to get a beautiful transparent product.
Also, copper oxides, in subtle, delicate tastings, give an unpalatable chemical “equipment taste.”
Yes, if you eat these black flakes you will never die and nothing special will happen to a healthy stomach, but still it’s not entirely pleasant, is it?
So I replaced the downstream copper path with stainless steel. Which is always clean and does not become covered with a copper patina. The flakes disappeared and the copper taste of the equipment also disappeared. A drink with flakes that smells of copper is a FAILURE IN THE WORK OF A DISTILLER. And you scammers started throwing rotten tomatoes at me! For what?!

Tedd it's clear you've taken the time to do some research on the subject which is admirable.

But I'm pretty confident that CuO is completely insoluble in both ethanol and water. You'd need either a strong (HCL/Formic/Nitric/Sulphuric) or boiling acid, (A high molarity acetic acid cleaning run on a still will do it!) an ammonia/cyanic solution or an alkaline metal concentration to liberate the oxides, no?

[Tedd squirrels]

A spray with some water just after the run will do the trick.

Just imagine, flushing didn't help. I washed it not just with water, but with water and citric acid (the coil and the neck of the goose) and after the run and then before each run - no effect - there were flakes. When washing, I used a plastic brush as deep as I could to clean dishes.
The issue was resolved in a radical way - I replaced the copper goose neck with a cylindrical stainless steel trunnion, as well as the copper coil with a stainless steel coil.
Tell me, isn't this good? Is this a crappy decision? But now I don’t have to worry about cleaning the copper, I just rinse the parts. I don't use citric acid for them. No copper smell, no black lumps of dirt.

[Stonecutter]

A spray with some water just after the run will do the trick.

Just imagine, flushing didn't help. I washed it not just with water, but with water and citric acid (the coil and the neck of the goose) and after the run and then before each run - no effect - there were flakes. When washing, I used a plastic brush as deep as I could to clean dishes.
The issue was resolved in a radical way - I replaced the copper goose neck with a cylindrical stainless steel trunnion, as well as the copper coil with a stainless steel coil.
Tell me, isn't this good? Is this a crappy decision? But now I don’t have to worry about cleaning the copper, I just rinse the parts. I don't use citric acid for them. No copper smell, no black lumps of dirt.

I’m glad you’ve found a process that you like. There is a bit of an argument between SS and copper eh?
Safety first.
And all that jazz.

[Tedd squirrels]

But I'm pretty confident that CuO is completely insoluble in both ethanol and water.

That's right, this is a black insoluble powder that accumulates inside the coil tube, inside the swan neck of the alambik and falls off when the vapor runs into my precious product. In this case, copper is evil. I pointed my finger at this evil, but for some reason I angered my smart colleagues. Who want to force me to wash and polish copper. And so that copper was everywhere. But I do not want.
I put the stainless components where I see fit. And he left the copper ones where they needed to be - this is the cube and the helmet (hat) of the alambik.
A black precipitate also forms there (in a cube, in a helmet), but it is of a different kind - it is black copper sulfide. Learn chemistry, comrades! And take care of the tomatoes, you should eat them, not throw yourself at your opponents.

[MooseMan]

But I'm pretty confident that CuO is completely insoluble in both ethanol and water.

That's right, this is a black insoluble powder that accumulates inside the coil tube, inside the swan neck of the alambik and falls off when the vapor runs into my precious product. In this case, copper is evil. I pointed my finger at this evil, but for some reason I angered my smart colleagues. Who want to force me to wash and polish copper. And so that copper was everywhere. But I do not want.
I put the stainless components where I see fit. And he left the copper ones where they needed to be - this is the cube and the helmet (hat) of the alambik.
A black precipitate also forms there (in a cube, in a helmet), but it is of a different kind - it is black copper sulfide. Learn chemistry, comrades! And take care of the tomatoes, you should eat them, not throw yourself at your opponents.

"A black precipitate also forms there (in a cube, in a helmet), but it is of a different kind - it is black copper sulfide"

I'm struggling to remember the specific chemistry on this Tedd, do you mean copper sulphate?

[NormandieStill]

A spray with some water just after the run will do the trick.

Just imagine, flushing didn't help. I washed it not just with water, but with water and citric acid (the coil and the neck of the goose) and after the run and then before each run - no effect - there were flakes. When washing, I used a plastic brush as deep as I could to clean dishes.
The issue was resolved in a radical way - I replaced the copper goose neck with a cylindrical stainless steel trunnion, as well as the copper coil with a stainless steel coil.
Tell me, isn't this good? Is this a crappy decision? But now I don’t have to worry about cleaning the copper, I just rinse the parts. I don't use citric acid for them. No copper smell, no black lumps of dirt.

The thing is, you present it like your personal experience must be true for everyone else, and everyone is stupid for not doing the same thing as you. (That might not be your intention, but that's how it comes across). I personally can't relate to your experience, because despite having an all copper liebig (attached to a stainless boiler and still head), I don't get any black or blue flakes in my product. The only time I get any discolouration is if I've left the liebig wet after a run and not run the still for a while. I tend to get a little bit of green at the exit which dissolves into the first jar off the still (Which ends up in the firelighter jar anyway). This experience seems to tally with that of most of the members here, which begs the question, why yours is different. But while it doesn't make you wrong, it doesn't make you right either. A little humility would go a long way here. You have some interesting ideas but you shove them down everyone's throats, everywhere with prose that leaves no room for discussion. If you're looking to be put up on a pedestal as the Greatest Gift To Distilling, then I think you might have wandered into the wrong corner of the internet. There's FaceBook for that! If you want to share ideas and discuss things, then maybe check your attitude at the door.

[Tedd squirrels]

And all that jazz.

Ha ha ha! My jazz is a break beat. Just a few hours ago, my colleagues posted analyzes of gas chromatograms of single distillation of my method, which is better in quality (content of impurities) than classical double distillation! Checkmate to all skeptics! I play heavy pergone music on meat and butter while receiving the light pacification of the nocturne of the magical melody of the holy nectar of the Grail.

[Tedd squirrels]

I'm struggling to remember the specific chemistry on this Tedd, do you mean copper sulphate?

The cube contains not copper sulfate, but copper(II) sulfide (copper monosulfide) - CuS, an inorganic binary compound of divalent copper with sulfur. Sulfur and its compounds are present in the mash; when distilled not on copper, but on glass or stainless steel equipment, the product turns out HARD.

[Tedd squirrels]

If you want to share ideas and discuss things, then maybe check your attitude at the door.

And you are hospitable, however!
I wonder why you don’t immediately want to listen to what smart people offer you? If you think you are smarter, suggest something else. But your method with the green jar is certainly trash!
I don’t select either heads or headrests, and I get a cleaner product than when selecting heads! This newest method is already 250 years old. If you have a rush of greens, these are your problems and they lie in the brain.

[MooseMan]

I'm struggling to remember the specific chemistry on this Tedd, do you mean copper sulphate?

The cube contains not copper sulfate, but copper(II) sulfide (copper monosulfide) - CuS, an inorganic binary compound of divalent copper with sulfur. Sulfur and its compounds are present in the mash; when distilled not on copper, but on glass or stainless steel equipment, the product turns out HARD.

Thanks for clarifying.
Soluble in, as far as I know, Nitric/HCL/Sulfuric/Cyanide/Ammonium sulfide.
It's insoluble in water and ethanol.

And I'd think you would need far more sulphur than a ferment produces, to get the reaction required to produce it?

[MooseMan]

And all that jazz.

Ha ha ha! My jazz is a break beat. Just a few hours ago, my colleagues posted analyzes of gas chromatograms of single distillation of my method, which is better in quality (content of impurities) than classical double distillation! Checkmate to all skeptics! I play heavy pergone music on meat and butter while receiving the light pacification of the nocturne of the magical melody of the holy nectar of the Grail.

I was starting to enjoy our conversation but dude you are crazy!

By the way, sorry to the OP for helping to totally derail this thread!

[Tedd squirrels]

I was starting to enjoy our conversation but dude you are crazy!

This is the best mind-blowing of all the cuckoos that I have experienced. Today we show analyzes of my SINGLE RUN WITHOUT SELECTION OF HEADS in comparison with the standards for distillates by a colleague from Highspirit:
https://dzen.ru/video/watch/65d38c4e5235e6704d347b13

[Salt Must Flow]

Not that it matters what I think, but I'd vote to create a new thread to move this chat into. This topic is about how to wind copper coils.

[Stonecutter]

And all that jazz.

Ha ha ha! My jazz is a break beat. Just a few hours ago, my colleagues posted analyzes of gas chromatograms of single distillation of my method, which is better in quality (content of impurities) than classical double distillation! Checkmate to all skeptics! I play heavy pergone music on meat and butter while receiving the light pacification of the nocturne of the magical melody of the holy nectar of the Grail.

If only this was a forum based on the philosophy of music. We should start one.
I’d vote for your seat at the table.
But it isn’t….

[NorthWoodsAb]

This has become an unpleasant read.
Ted you stepped into, "high jacked", a thread on winding a cooling coil , a perfectly legitimate topic for this forum.
You explained an issue you had and corrected with stainless steel. Very good. Problem solved.
Other respected members asked questions to try to figure why your coil reacted in a poor manner when hundreds if not thousands of other copper coils have not had said issue.
Instead of staying on point to try and discuss the issue completely and figure out the real cause of your problem. You've been combative, have made a few insulting remarks and thrown a couple other curveballs to derail the train of thought on the discussion.
To say " copper should never be used for a condensing coil" is obtuse at best.

Did you ever consider the grade of copper in your coil may not be the quality it should be or you thought it was?

Either way I don't care at this point. Topic is closed to me.

Have a good day.

[NZChris]

Considering the number of forum members who haven't experienced your problem, I suggest that you have a good look at your fermenting, distilling and cleaning protocols to find the real cause of your problem.

If it ain't broke there isn't anything to fix, so why should we review our processes when we are not the ones having the problem?

[Tedd squirrels]

If it ain't broke there isn't anything to fix, so why should we review our processes when we are not the ones having the problem?

You have problems, you just don't notice them.
The laws of physics and chemistry are the same for everyone.
I sorted out my problems and eliminated them.
Your problems remain with you, you have not eliminated anything and do not want to eliminate them.
For example, colleague NormandieStill has green cans that are discarded mechanically “by eye”.
Nobody knows how much greenery was discarded and how much remained.
And why should I do additional research and product analysis if the problem with black inclusions has been solved?
A colleague has “a little green at the exit, which dissolves in the first jar from the distillation cube (which still ends up in the jar to start the fire)” - this is not a strand, on my first jar there are drops like a virgin’s tear - transparent like crystal. And I don’t select them at all and don’t throw them away, because they are very good.

[NZChris]

There have never been any "black inclusions" from any of my stills, so that isn't a problem that has to be solved in my shed,

[Tedd squirrels]

There have never been any "black inclusions" from any of my stills.

Are there green or blue ones? Or cloudiness, some kind of whitishness? In the first factions? If you have them clean, then why throw them away to light the grill?

[samwell]

Not that it matters what I think, but I'd vote to create a new thread to move this chat into. This topic is about how to wind copper coils.

Yeah, it really got side tracked . Went from me hijacking an old post to ask about clearing my coil to i don't know HAHAHA.