First spirit run

[Hunter4950]

Well, I finally got my first spirit run in. I prepared enough wash to make about 2.5 gallons of low wines that came in at 37% abv without the need to dilute with additional water. I wanted a bit more volume for my 8 gallon keg, but also wanted to get down to making some final product.
Anyway, I fired the flame up and got my first drips about 35 minutes in. Once that occurred I turned the heat down and just listened to my still. I was aiming for a nice gentle "boil" I guess and I've already learned I can do that by sound. I'm trying not to pay too much attention to the thermometer, but mine settled in right around 174 fahrenheit and actually stayed there almost the entire time (at the top of my riser). I had a good fast drip to broken stream coming from the outlet so I didn't mess anything. I collected a total of 20, 8oz jars over the course of 6 hours. ABVs came in 84% or 168 proof for the first 8oz jar (after pitching first 4oz), then several jars at 166 proof, then several at 160 and downward from there. I stopped at 128 proof on jar 20 as the temps did rise I to the upper 180s, and by calculations, I probably got most of the alcohol out of that wash. I have the 20 jars airing out and will get down to trying to make my first cuts/blends soon.
One obvious question, should it take 6 hours to collect just over a gallon of product out of a 2.5 gallon still charge? The still seemed to run just fine, albeit a bit slow. That's perfectly fine, but was just wondering about the time it took. Thanks for your continued help and patience with a newbie!

[Wildcats]

Why not strip more and fill the keg up with more low wines? Seems like a lot of work for a small return. You'll probably only end up with a quart of so after cuts.
Congratulations on your first spirit run. Cheer's

[Bradster68]

+1 on saving low wines. Save enough from your ferments to fill your boiler for a spirit run.
You say wash? So you made something from sugar?

[Hunter4950]

I didn't give enough info. I'm attempting to make all grain bourbon. I did 4 separate 5 gallon fermentations and 3 strip runs prior. Each wash came in around 7.5abv so not too bad. My best fermentation ended around 9abv. I know I stopped my first strip early because I stopped at 30abv (60 proof) in my last jar. Subsequent strips I ran it down to a total of 15abv or 30 proof for the entirecollection. So out of about 17 gallons of wash at a guesstimate of 7.5abv I got the 2.5 gallons low wines at 37%abv after my strip runs.
My mash bill is 69% flake corn, 16% red wheat, and 14% 6 row pilsner barley. Sort of trying mimic a Maker's Mark bourbon.
Agree that it's been a ton of time to make the washes, do the strip runs, and a spirit run for what seems to be a few bottles of bourbon. But hey, it's been a really fun journey so far to be honest, but the wife is asking what the heck I'm getting in to!

[Bradster68]

As long as your having fun is all that matters.
And that recipe should make a fine spirit aged for a year or more. I couldn't stay out of my wheated bourbon. Just keep the ferments going and you'll build stock. I let mine sit a month before running. So it's a constant turnover for me. And now I do large batches so I've got lots of aging spirits

[Stonecutter]

Looking good Hunter4950
Most all my runs sit between 5-6 hours. Glad to see you’re having fun with it. Any plans for aging?

[NormandieStill]

Congrats on your first complete run. 6 hours is generally considered the sweet spot, the compromise between time taken and good separation. It holds whether you run 8 litres or 80 litres which is why folks often recommend scaling up your ferments. If you're going to spend 6 hours swapping jars, you might as well put twice as much in and get twice as much back out!

I do think something went awry with your maths though. One stripping run yielding 30% in the pot and two more yielding 15% can't possibly give you a boiler charge at 37%. You may want to check your notes.

[Hunter4950]

Congrats on your first complete run. 6 hours is generally considered the sweet spot, the compromise between time taken and good separation. It holds whether you run 8 litres or 80 litres which is why folks often recommend scaling up your ferments. If you're going to spend 6 hours swapping jars, you might as well put twice as much in and get twice as much back out!

I do think something went awry with your maths though. One stripping run yielding 30% in the pot and two more yielding 15% can't possibly give you a boiler charge at 37%. You may want to check your notes.

Oh geeze, yes, you are correct! I stopped my strip run at 30% on the last jar collected, which put the whole collected average about 93 proof or 47abv. Another member said I stopped that run way too early, which I realize now is definitely correct. I dumped that first run into my jug, and started adding strip runs 2 & 3 to that run, and ended up with the whole collection at 37%.

[NormandieStill]

Oh geeze, yes, you are correct! I stopped my strip run at 30% on the last jar collected, which put the whole collected average about 93 proof or 47abv. Another member said I stopped that run way too early, which I realize now is definitely correct. I dumped that first run into my jug, and started adding strip runs 2 & 3 to that run, and ended up with the whole collection at 37%.

That makes more sense. For whiskies I tend to aim for around 25% in the pot as that seems to get me to barrel proof with no dilution required after a spirit run and cuts (obviously your still and ferments may perform diffferently).

[Hunter4950]

Oh geeze, yes, you are correct! I stopped my strip run at 30% on the last jar collected, which put the whole collected average about 93 proof or 47abv. Another member said I stopped that run way too early, which I realize now is definitely correct. I dumped that first run into my jug, and started adding strip runs 2 & 3 to that run, and ended up with the whole collection at 37%.

That makes more sense. For whiskies I tend to aim for around 25% in the pot as that seems to get me to barrel proof with no dilution required after a spirit run and cuts (obviously your still and ferments may perform diffferently).

I think that is what I'm going to try going forward so I don't have to cut with water and possibly sacrifice flavors. I was surprised that my spirit run abv's were up there in the 80% range.

[Dougmatt]

Here’s a chart that should help you. Trace your finger up from the wash Abv then right across to the vapor Abv and that is approx what you will be getting off the still.

http://homedistiller.org/graphics/Alcohol_curve.jpg

Hope this helps.

Edit: this one is a little cleaner. http://stupidityshouldhurt.com/referenc ... _curve.jpg

[Twisted Brick]

One obvious question, should it take 6 hours to collect just over a gallon of product out of a 2.5 gallon still charge?

Pot still run time variables will include the amount of power applied, still geometry, condenser knockdown power and of course, boiler volume.

A typical pot still spirit run (10gal, 30abv boiler charge) takes me 90min warmup (intentional)) then 3hrs till shutdown. This is with a just barely unbroken, pencil-lead sized stream.

Good advice from Normandie. Careful mash/ferment practices should yield AG tails that transition to sweetwater and are great at bringing ABV down closer to barrel proof.

[haggy]

Hunter,

We cannot tell if your run was a typical spirit run or not.

We do not know the power (watts ) that you ran, or if there is insulation on the pot or was there any long riser used and was it insulated or not. The last two items determine how much Internal Passive Reflux occurs on the surface walls of the pot and riser. High Internal Passive Reflux leads to a higher product abv and a lower product rate.

But, I can revert to some calculations to try to determine those variables. I have examined three different potstill calculators and can give you some guidelines.

Maybe you are on a gas burner so you do not know the watts. The HD Pot Still calculator says it takes 1030 watts to heat up your 2.5 gal / 37% abv charge to boiling in 35 minutes. Then you reduced the heat from there for the run.

Several different run conditions at your pot charge can end up with 64% abv out the spout and the 1+ gallon made at the 6 hour run time. Two of those conditions are about 250 watts with low (10-20%) Internal Reflux and the other is about 530 watts and 66% Internal Reflux.

The key clue is the high abv during the run. You had 80+% abv for very much of the run. This can happen if there is a high Internal Reflux. Reflux liquid draining down the walls can be re-vaporized to a higher abv. Another clue is the very low fill of 2.5 gal in an 8 gal pot. There is much pot wall surface area exposed to give this Internal Reflux. A long riser could also do it.

It seems like you could have run at about 500 watts with a lot of Internal Reflux. Not a typical spirit run. A typical spirit run for that pot charge at 500 watts without much Internal Reflux would see the vapor abv decreasing more from the start and a much shorter run time, about 2.7 hours for the 1+ gallon of product at 64% abv out the spout, and probably about 3.5 hours to the tails.

So,
Can you determine or estimate the watts used, is there any insulation and how long is the vertical riser? Any sight glass above the pot to see reflux? That information would help determine the run conditions.

haggy

[OtisT]

Hi Hunter. I run my pot still spirit runs similar to the way Normandy recommended with regard to duration. It does not matter to me how much volume I have in the boiler, 1 gallon to 13, I want things done in about 8 hours, including warmup. That usually means that after warmup and collecting fores (about 2 hours total) I adjust power so that I will collect the entire contents of the run in 6 hours. Example: If I expect 6 liters of product, I will set my power to collect at a rate of 1 lph (100ml every 6 minutes). If I expect to collect 12 liters, I will set the power to collect 100ml every 3 minutes.

If you really want to know how many watts you are running at these two charts may help. The charts are based on my 15 gallon boiler and pot head. Your numbers may vary slightly based on how much ambient reflux your still has, but it should not be too different. Simply measure how long it takes to fill a jar with 100 or 250 ml, find your row on the Jar Fill Time chart to convert that to lph, then look at the other chart in the Zero Reflux column for your lph and you have your approximate wattage.

[Dancing4dan]

I don’t know. So many ways to skin a cat.

My last spirit run was a full keg of low wines that resulted in a 20 L oak barrel Full at 63% ABV. Plus 1.5 L for the next barrel. Took 14 hours to run. At 63% the white is amazing. It was a long day.

Spirit run takes however long you make it take.

I find slower heat up on strip and slower spirit runs through a pot still = better product.

Put a TV in your still shack or read a book. Take your time and enjoy the ride.

Anyone telling you it took you to long to complete a spirit run…. I’d question that advice.

[NormandieStill]

I don’t know. So many ways to skin a cat.
...
Spirit run takes however long you make it take.

I find slower heat up on strip and slower spirit runs through a pot still = better product.
...
Anyone telling you it took you to long to complete a spirit run…. I’d question that advice.

You are right on this. Hence the "sweet spot" comment. Especially when starting out it's hard to commit to a 12 hour run. More so if your palate may not be able to detect the differences for the cuts. I run apple brandy differently than whisky because I'm looking for greater separation in the heads to find that cut point.

[Saltbush Bill]

I'm 100% with the two posts above, I've done many runs that took longer than 8 and 10 hours.
Boiler size, ABV of boiler charge, still type, heat up times, fores and heads take off times are all individual choices.
Only experience will tell what is right for you.
In short, way to many variables to state a hard and fast rule concerning time taken for a run.

[Yummyrum]

Hi Hunter. I run my pot still spirit runs similar to the way Normandy recommended with regard to duration. It does not matter to me how much volume I have in the boiler, 1 gallon to 13, I want things done in about 8 hours, including warmup.

When it comes to Pot still spirit Runs , I’m in total agreeance with Otis . It’s a physics thing . Ideal Watts per litre = ideal separation .
More litres , more watts ……. Less litres , less watts . ….. time = the same …. About 8 hours . That seems to be the happy spot .

What this means is it takes the same amount of time to distill 1 gal or 13gal . …..you need to match the Boiler Power to the boiler charge . ….. Power management controls the separation .

I spent many wasted hours and made shitloads of horrible booze running too fast on a Pot still . Took me a while to realise you can’t beat the laws …. If you want to avoid smeared Pot still spirits , you gotta buckle down for a day .

Which is why it makes more sense to distill bigger batches . More product for the same amount of time .

Now running a Plated still or a reflux is a totally different thing . Separation is determined by packing and reflux ratio ,and the power limit is set by how much the column can handle .

So boiler charge will make a huge difference to how long the run takes in both the extra boil-up time and the run time . …. and yes , stick a few gallons in the boiler and you will be done in few hours , stick 20 gal in there and you’d better pack a cut lunch and diner and have your bed ready .

[Dougmatt]

I want things done in about 8 hours, including warmup.

When it comes to Pot still spirit Runs , I’m in total agreeance with Otis . It’s a physics thing . Ideal Watts per litre = ideal separation .
More litres , more watts ……. Less litres , less watts . ….. time = the same …. About 8 hours . That seems to be the happy spot .

This is a good conversation. I’ve slowed my spirit runs way down and averaging around 10 hours, but they just take what they take looking at production rate.

Totally makes sense why 8 hours is better than say 4 or 6 on a pot, but I can anyone say why 8 is better than 10? Is that just balancing the time it takes against potential improvement or are you saying that’s the best time? I’ve read / heard from some old timers that running too slow creates “angry” spirit. But what is too slow?


PS: thanks for the charts OT. Hadn’t seen those before.

[NormandieStill]

Totally makes sense why 8 hours is better than say 4 or 6 on a pot, but I can anyone say why 8 is better than 10? Is that just balancing the time it takes against potential improvement or are you saying that’s the best time? I’ve read / heard from some old timers that running too slow creates “angry” spirit. But what is too slow?

The theory is that the slower you run, the more complete the separation of congeners you achieve. I think there's a law of diminishing returns though, where a small improvement may require doubling the run time. Unless you are running as a relay, with a second person to take over at some point, fatigue will start to kick in and you'll make mistakes... which can get dangerous.

I think there are also a lot of myths from old timers... perhaps more than there are useful truths passed down. There could be more ester creation on a long run but as I understand it, as the run progresses, the contents of the boiler get less favourable to ester creation.

I don't remember the thread title but there was a great discussion on this some time ago.

TL;DR: Ideal run time is the compromise between congener separation and available time for running the still.

[NormandieStill]

The thread in question was this one. The whole thread is worth a read but the link is to still stirrin's explanation of the process of congener separation in pot stilling

[OtisT]

I want things done in about 8 hours, including warmup.

When it comes to Pot still spirit Runs , I’m in total agreeance with Otis . It’s a physics thing . Ideal Watts per litre = ideal separation .
More litres , more watts ……. Less litres , less watts . ….. time = the same …. About 8 hours . That seems to be the happy spot .

This is a good conversation. I’ve slowed my spirit runs way down and averaging around 10 hours, but they just take what they take looking at production rate.

Totally makes sense why 8 hours is better than say 4 or 6 on a pot, but I can anyone say why 8 is better than 10? Is that just balancing the time it takes against potential improvement or are you saying that’s the best time? I’ve read / heard from some old timers that running too slow creates “angry” spirit. But what is too slow?


PS: thanks for the charts OT. Hadn’t seen those before.

I feel that a spirit run should not be run too fast, as described above, but I do not know of any problems running too long other than it wastes my time. I can believe what you heard from the old timers, that a long run time would impact ester production and such, but I have not tested nor read anything about that myself. I have not really compared a 6 or 8 hour run to a 12 hour run like I have compared 2 and 3 hour runs vs 6 or 8 hour runs. I stoped experimenting once I found an improved product within a time I found acceptable. I will say that if I thought running things 12 hours would improve things significantly over 6-8, I would run for 12 hours.

I do very much realize these are my preferences, but I have to disagree with those that say “it takes as long as it takes.” That sounds like philosophy to me, not batch processing. The run takes as long as I tell it to take within the controls I have.

Dougmatt, I just put those charts together recently. I have always calculated those things on the fly each time I did a spirit run, and I finally decided to write it down. I found it especially annoying having to calculate my target fill rate each time, so this is a big help to me in getting things dialed in quickly.

The power to production rate chart may vary somewhat by still. All that math is based upon my one still producing 11 liters per hour at 5500 W. Everything else is a calculation from that. Another still with a different amount of reflux will have slightly different numbers. Also, the further power levels get from 5500w, my level of reflux will impact the results more, so it is likely off more the further from that power level. I’ll have to run some tests with my smaller stills to see how the lower end numbers hold up. This is also just based the production rate of the first hour of a strip run, so a boiler full of low wines may impact this a bit and of course, we all know that the production rate will go down over time. It’s a good starting point.

[howie]

there has been talk of matching your ferments to your boiler size etc, maybe we should include lifestyle/spare time in this equation
i can cope with 6-8 hr reflux spirit runs mainly because of 2 things.
1. i am almost completely r̶e̶t̶a̶r̶d̶e̶d̶ retired
2. the still is by the workshop doors, so i can get on with other stuff whilst keeping one eye on the still.

last week, tues & wed were devoted to 2 x 8hr reflux spirit runs, both almost complete by the time HID came home.
late last year i got a 4 week, mon-fri job, and found it difficult to fit in stilling time TBH.
i would hate to miss visiting the relatives at weekend

so my 35l fermenters, little 35l boiler & 2" CM still are matched ok IMHO.
i was thinking of getting a 50-60L boiler, but unless i wanted 16 hr reflux runs, i would also have to upgrade to a 4".
i could probably afford this if i was working full time.

hmmmm, so if i worked full time i could get a better/bigger still and not visit relatives.............
<fills in job application>

[Yummyrum]

Naughty boy Howie

[Hunter4950]

Holy cow guys! Thanks for all the replies! I haven't been able to get on the board for a bit and see there have been several.

I did another strip run yesterday and am trying to learn how my still runs. It has a 2" riser and is about 18" long. I do, according to instructions, pack a lightly rolled piece of copper mesh into the bottom of the riser which I assume gives it some reflux. I don't have any insulation on the boiler or riser. It has been fairly cold on all my runs. I'd say in the 30s. I'm probably getting a bit more reflux than I think.

I just think this little still is going to run slow, which is ok by me. When I say slow, I'm talking 2-3 drips per second. My strip run yesterday took 5.5 hours from start to finish for a gallon of low wines from a 6 gallon boiler charge. I ran it down to 30% abv. FG was around 8%. I might be able to put more energy into the boiler to start as it's taking about an hour to see the first drips out of the condenser. So I could probably shave some time off my strip runs by dumping a bit more energy into it. It would be nice to get a 6 gallon boiler charge done in about 4 hours on a strip run. 6 hours on a spirit run is ok for now, albeit that was about a 2.5 to 2.75 gallon boiler charge.

By the way, my first product was actually pretty good! I filled two Ten-30 barrels with 775ml in each, and kept two about 6 oz jars of white dog. I put an oak chunk in one, and left the other plain. I think it has a bit of a tailsy taste though so on my next rounds of cuts, I'm going to be more conscious of that.

[Yummyrum]

Drips on a stripping run is way too slow . Crank up the power as much as you can . You definitely don’t need any reflux action so wrap a towel around your boiler and riser and keep as much heat in as you can .

Get it done as soon as you can . Save time on the stripping runs but put it into the spirit run where it counts .

Glad to hear your spirit run tastes good

[Hunter4950]

Drips on a stripping run is way too slow . Crank up the power as much as you can . You definitely don’t need any reflux action so wrap a towel around your boiler and riser and keep as much heat in as you can .

Get it done as soon as you can . Save time on the stripping runs but put it into the spirit run where it counts .

Glad to hear your spirit run tastes good

10-4 on that. My next fermentation is almost done so on the next strip run I'll dial it up a bit and see what happens. Should I keep that copper mesh in the riser on strip runs?

[Yummyrum]

Should I keep that copper mesh in the riser on strip runs?

If it's the only Copper in there then yes .You need to keep it .
As far as it being a reflux medium, if you insulate the riser and run more power , it will do SFA as far as any refluxing is concerned . It will just be a Copper catalyst doing its job .....which is exactly why you have it there

[MooseMan]

Drips on a stripping run is way too slow . Crank up the power as much as you can . You definitely don’t need any reflux action so wrap a towel around your boiler and riser and keep as much heat in as you can .

Get it done as soon as you can . Save time on the stripping runs but put it into the spirit run where it counts .

Glad to hear your spirit run tastes good

10-4 on that. My next fermentation is almost done so on the next strip run I'll dial it up a bit and see what happens. Should I keep that copper mesh in the riser on strip runs?

Don't dial it up a bit Hunter, run it on full power or as high as your condenser can cope with.
That's what Yummy is saying, give it full beans!

Insulation will help a lot.

[Hunter4950]

Drips on a stripping run is way too slow . Crank up the power as much as you can . You definitely don’t need any reflux action so wrap a towel around your boiler and riser and keep as much heat in as you can .

Get it done as soon as you can . Save time on the stripping runs but put it into the spirit run where it counts .

Glad to hear your spirit run tastes good

10-4 on that. My next fermentation is almost done so on the next strip run I'll dial it up a bit and see what happens. Should I keep that copper mesh in the riser on strip runs?

Don't dial it up a bit Hunter, run it on full power or as high as your condenser can cope with.
That's what Yummy is saying, give it full beans!

Insulation will help a lot.

Will do! Thanks for the advice. I hope to do another strip run this week.