High rye wash in an electrical boiler?

[ckdistills]

I’m interested in exploring high rye whiskeys, from 51 - 100% rye, both malted and unmalted. Fermented on grain, stripped off grain.

Any pointers or guidance to be successful in a keg boiler with low density 3500 watt element? Or will it be so difficult to keep from scorching that it’s best to wait until I can steam strip?

1.75 lbs grain / gallon water
Step mash up with a beta glucan rest at 110 F.
Add enough boiling water to gel at 150 F. Alpha amylase.
Beta Glucanase @ 140 F.
Beta Amylase @ 110 F if needed.

If the recipe has corn, I’d gelatinize the rye in a separate vessel and then combine after corn has gelled and come down in temp.

Ferment on grain, BIAB drain/squeeze. Very slow heat up, thinking 500 - 750 watts.

[elbono]

I plan to do similar this weekend. It's my first rye mash so I don't have advice I'm just following along.

My plan is to do a large batch method with 25 lbs rye malt at 2 lb/gallon. Shooting for 7-8% after ferment.

Plan is:
12.5 lb rye malt in insulated blue barrel.
Add 3.125 gallon 120F water, hopefully get 110F.

Repeat, adjust water temp according to results of above.

Add LD Carlson powdered betagluconase enzyme, label says 15gm/31 gallon. I don't believe that, I'll probably use 10gm for my 6.25 gallon at this point.

Wait 1-2 hours.

Add another 6.25 gallon water to get 145F, still trying to figure temp so I'll probably do 3 gallons at 160F and adjust the temp of the next 3.25 gallons according to results of the last.

Add ferm solutions glucoamylase according to instructions, I think that will be about 15 gm.

Wait until temp drops to 110F, roll outside (Tennessee has a built in chiller now) when temp drops to 85F add yeast and 3"x24" strip of marble tile. Move back inside.

Questions I have:
Anyone have experience with LD Carlson betaglucanase? Suggestions?

Temps look right? Should I add GA with the beta glucanase at 110F?

Is there any point to using AA enzymes? I've assumed that's mainly to prevent making masa when working with corn. I have plenty if it will help.

How well will cold crashing help clearing? The biggest problem I'll have is making sure it doesn't freeze right now.

[elbono]

Forgot the on topic part, I'm running a 5500w ulwd element. Scorching hasn't been a problem with corn/rye/barley mashes. I can run on propane if needed.

Is 100% rye going to act the same as a 60/30/10 corn/rye/barley if it looks the same? My high rye bourbon runs haven't had issues. They look pretty milky going in the boiler.

[howie]

I plan to do similar this weekend. It's my first rye mash so I don't have advice I'm just following along.

My plan is to do a large batch method with 25 lbs rye malt at 2 lb/gallon. Shooting for 7-8% after ferment.

Plan is:
12.5 lb rye malt in insulated blue barrel.
Add 3.125 gallon 120F water, hopefully get 110F.

Repeat, adjust water temp according to results of above.

Add LD Carlson powdered betagluconase enzyme, label says 15gm/31 gallon. I don't believe that, I'll probably use 10gm for my 6.25 gallon at this point.

Wait 1-2 hours.

Add another 6.25 gallon water to get 145F, still trying to figure temp so I'll probably do 3 gallons at 160F and adjust the temp of the next 3.25 gallons according to results of the last.

Add ferm solutions glucoamylase according to instructions, I think that will be about 15 gm.

Wait until temp drops to 110F, roll outside (Tennessee has a built in chiller now) when temp drops to 85F add yeast and 3"x24" strip of marble tile. Move back inside.

Questions I have:
Anyone have experience with LD Carlson betaglucanase? Suggestions?

Temps look right? Should I add GA with the beta glucanase at 110F?

Is there any point to using AA enzymes? I've assumed that's mainly to prevent making masa when working with corn. I have plenty if it will help.

How well will cold crashing help clearing? The biggest problem I'll have is making sure it doesn't freeze right now.

does rye malt need any additional enzymes?
rye malt has a DP of 75 in my grain database.
the glucan rest and maybe the addition of β-glucanase could be important.

[elbono]

does rye malt need any additional enzymes?
rye malt has a DP of 75 in my grain database.
the glucan rest and maybe the addition of β-glucanase could be important.

Probably not, good point. I'll probably put in a dose of GA for safety though.

I've never used LD Carlson before I hope their beta glucanase powder is up to the task.

[Chucker]

I tried a 65% rye (corn, barley) last season and didn’t go into it with glucanase; taking a wait and see approach. Wrong; it needs glucanase. I ordered some of the LDCarlson stuff after the ferment (on grain) was done. Even added at that late point it made a huge difference to the viscosity, though it didn’t clear. I ran it (off grain) with puke mitigation steps. It gave no problems and is shaping up to be mighty fine tasting.
Next time I’ll get the glucanase in where it belongs. Everything else was the same I’d do for a corn mash; using alpha amylase and glucoamylase in their respective places.
I’m not about to deal with cooking grains so everything is done using steeping methods. I hadn’t thought about stepping the rye up since I was planning exogenous enzymes anyway. I just stepped down from corn gel temps, adding the rye at around 165 or so, with remaining malt and enzyme added below 150. Like I said, same method as for corn based mash. But the heavy rye needed the glucanase.

[still_stirrin]

Der wo suggested it and I have done it for years: a “2 water” mash, that is, I mash the rye malt (and some of the barley/base malt) from the bottom up, with a glucan rest, while mashing the corn top down, allowing a gentle simmer on the corn pudding to gelatinize.

Typically, the corn gelatinize process requires more rest time than the rye and base malt, so I’ll upward infuse the malts as I add the rest of the base malt. If there is wheat and/or oats in the malts, I’ll infuse up through a protein rest as well. Finally, after the corn has gelled (and I’ve thinned it with the HTL enzymes) I use the hot corn grist to upward infuse the base malts up to saccarification temperature.

My mash system does use recirculation of the hot liquor, so temperature steps are easily controlled and stable. The end result is a “clear” wort with very little particulate and protein haze. I have boiled the wort post-lauter before, but now I just runoff through a chiller into the fermenters.

Typically, ferments are active within a couple of hours and are usually attenuate after 3 to 5 days. But, I’ll let the ferments flocculate for at least 2 weeks more, some times up to 4 more weeks. By then the beers are so clear that you can almost “read” through the carboys.
ss

[ckdistills]

Der wo suggested it and I have done it for years: a “2 water” mash, that is, I mash the rye malt (and some of the barley/base malt) from the bottom up, with a glucan rest, while mashing the corn top down, allowing a gentle simmer on the corn pudding to gelatinize.

Typically, the corn gelatinize process requires more rest time than the rye and base malt, so I’ll upward infuse the malts as I add the rest of the base malt. If there is wheat and/or oats in the malts, I’ll infuse up through a protein rest as well. Finally, after the corn has gelled (and I’ve thinned it with the HTL enzymes) I use the hot corn grist to upward infuse the base malts up to saccarification temperature.

My mash system does use recirculation of the hot liquor, so temperature steps are easily controlled and stable. The end result is a “clear” wort with very little particulate and protein haze. I have boiled the wort post-lauter before, but now I just runoff through a chiller into the fermenters.

Typically, ferments are active within a couple of hours and are usually attenuate after 3 to 5 days. But, I’ll let the ferments flocculate for at least 2 weeks more, some times up to 4 more weeks. By then the beers are so clear that you can almost “read” through the carboys.
ss

Yes, I’ve read about that two water system. Your setup sounds like it works a treat. I don’t have a recirculating setup but haven’t had a problem gelling corn using the large batch mashing technique. Though I have had trouble hitting the same temps that are predicted by the mash in calculators. I’m often 5 - 10 F lower but the overnight gelatinization still does the trick.

I hadn’t thought of using the corn mash itself to raise the temp of the rye mash - I like that.


I am hearing that my fears of running rye wash in an electric boiler are overblown. Going to give it a try.

[ckdistills]

I tried a 65% rye (corn, barley) last season and didn’t go into it with glucanase; taking a wait and see approach. Wrong; it needs glucanase. I ordered some of the LDCarlson stuff after the ferment (on grain) was done. Even added at that late point it made a huge difference to the viscosity, though it didn’t clear. I ran it (off grain) with puke mitigation steps. It gave no problems and is shaping up to be mighty fine tasting.
Next time I’ll get the glucanase in where it belongs.

I’ve got the LD Carlson on order. Hopefully the combo of the enzymes and the glucan rest will make it easier to work with.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

For the badass like 100% rye (either malted or not) those bad Russians got used to look for something like this:
.

.
Anything else is half measures and a path to fatal disappointments. Ms. Rye is worth the investment.

[Tōtōchtin]

Der wo suggested it and I have done it for years: a “2 water” mash, that is, I mash the rye malt (and some of the barley/base malt) from the bottom up, with a glucan rest, while mashing the corn top down, allowing a gentle simmer on the corn pudding to gelatinize.

Typically, the corn gelatinize process requires more rest time than the rye and base malt, so I’ll upward infuse the malts as I add the rest of the base malt. If there is wheat and/or oats in the malts, I’ll infuse up through a protein rest as well. Finally, after the corn has gelled (and I’ve thinned it with the HTL enzymes) I use the hot corn grist to upward infuse the base malts up to saccarification temperature.

My mash system does use recirculation of the hot liquor, so temperature steps are easily controlled and stable. The end result is a “clear” wort with very little particulate and protein haze. I have boiled the wort post-lauter before, but now I just runoff through a chiller into the fermenters.

Typically, ferments are active within a couple of hours and are usually attenuate after 3 to 5 days. But, I’ll let the ferments flocculate for at least 2 weeks more, some times up to 4 more weeks. By then the beers are so clear that you can almost “read” through the carboys.
ss

Thanks for that input
T

[ckdistills]

Anything else is half measures and a path to fatal disappointments. Ms. Rye is worth the investment.

I've got a couple bags of rye on order, going into an 85% rye mash. I'm afraid of this comment! I hope my protocol, especially a high water to grain ratio and very slow heat-up will help. We'll see.

[OtisT]

Anything else is half measures and a path to fatal disappointments. Ms. Rye is worth the investment.

I've got a couple bags of rye on order, going into an 85% rye mash. I'm afraid of this comment! I hope my protocol, especially a high water to grain ratio and very slow heat-up will help. We'll see.

A few misc. precautions or FYIs with doing an all rye:
* Agitate your boiler charge while it is heating up, to keep things from settling on the element of sticking to it before the boil has a chance to stir things on its own. Will help minimize the chance of a scorch. (I recommend a steam strip, but I understand you work with what you got.)
* Your ferment may foam up big time. Have lots of head space to hold the foam. At least 50% additional space in my opinion, and you still want to watch it. Mine foamed within the first hour or two of reaching pitch temp, even before I added yeast, but it settled down right after that. I surprisingly had no foam up issues during distillation, something others had warned me about.
* I’ve not had the best of luck with rye conversion. A few extra weeks fermenting did the trick for me.
* I found that my all rye yield was much higher than calculated/expected. I used just 2 lb/gal and ended up with a beer over 10%. With subsequent reading I learned that rye is relatively higher in carbs ( sugar) and lower in proteins than wheat and barley, so the old 2-2.15 lb/gallon rule of thumb does not work for all rye (if you are targeting a FG around 7%). A thinner mash will also help minimize the chance of a scorch.
* My rye took weeks to settle on its own. I did not degass my ferment, so it all foamed up again when I tried to siphon off the clear beer. I have never seen anything like it with my prior AGs. Either degass the ferment before settling, or be ready to siphone fast before it can foam up like a root beer float.

Good luck and let us know how it goes. My all rye is one of my favorite batches made to date.

[Powder Monkey]

Before I just jumped into a steam strip set up… with my high rye experiments on electric for “poor man’s agitation” I would do the initial heat with the “premium” cleared liquid while intermittently draining some off and adding it to the top with my column off. Once I got close to boiling temps I would add the “cloudy and thick but don’t want to waste this” and keep mixing until almost boil and then add the column. The boiling agitation then helped (didn’t completely solve) scorching.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

OtisT, still_stirrin and other gentlemen have nuff said

And don't forget of using some defoamer for both fermentation and stripping run. For the second case, just a fair piece of butter is okay, seriously. In the first case, the crumbs of butter cookies are quite suitable for the "poor man"

[The Booze Pipe]

As for the ultra low density heating element, I just ran a corn wash with all sorts of solids and milkyness to it. No scorch. I was very impressed. And worried

Can’t speak to high rye.

[ckdistills]

Thanks to all, great tips here - I'll update the thread with successes or failures as I go. Will be a bit yet, have rye in hand but first malting a portion of it.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

May the Force be with you!

[ckdistills]

I've malted enough rye for two 20 gallon batches but decided to start out with 7 gallons - enough for one stripping run to test before committing to the larger batch size.

70% Rye
20% Rye malt
10% Barley malt

12.25 lbs of grain split into two 5 gallon buckets. 3.5 gallons total water volume in each bucket for headroom. Should be 1.75 lbs grain / gallon.

Mashed in today by adding hot water to raise the temperature at each rest point. Into each bucket:
1 gallon water @ 130 F into bucket with grain to rest at 113 F for beta glucan rest
1/4 gallon water @ boiling to 127 F for protein rest
1 gallon water @ boiling to 148 F
alpha & beta amylase
beta glucanase @ 125 (should have added this at 140).
1 1/4 gallon cold water to 98 F
Starting gravity 1.056 & 1.058
Pitched Hornindal in one bucket at 98 F and the second at 86 F

[ckdistills]

Wow that fermented fast. Pitched yeast Thursday night, cap dropped Saturday afternoon @ 1.003 & 1.004.

On Sunday, I squeezed the grain. Beer was a little viscous/slimy but no problem squeezing the BIAB. Suspect the step up protocol & enzymes helped. Left it to settle: 3 gallons beer in first bucket, 3.25 gallons in second. This morning (Monday), the trub has settled to about a gallon in the bottom of each bucket. No signs of infection, going to let it continue to flocculate for a few more days and then run it.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

I shall pray for you, my brother...

[ckdistills]

I shall pray for you, my brother...

Success or failure it will be a story!

[VLAGAVULVIN]

I shall pray for you, my brother...

Success or failure it will be a story!

Anyways, never do it like me...

[The Booze Pipe]

More anecdote… I’m stripping a wheat bourbon with 10% rye. I threw in 10 gallons of the muddiest stuff I had, it looked and tasted bad. It’s stripping out just fine. Again 5500 watt element, keeping the power down kept the foam down as well. I meant to take a picture of it but forgot.

[The Booze Pipe]

Well fk, it definitely burned, towards the end a mild smell of leftover tobaccco ash in the distillate. But that was about 6 gallons of beer and 3 gallons of yeasty dough trub. I’ll leave it out next time.

[ckdistills]

Well that failed...but I'm not convinced it was the beer. After pouring in the beer I smelled an infection from the boiler and after pouring out the backset after the run there were bits of infection pellicle that poured out as well. I'm in the habit of spraying out my boiler after use, but it's been a couple months since last use and I must not have done that and didn't check before pouring in the beer. I went ahead and ran it since it's a test anyway, not thinking about how there might be a pellicle in the boiler that could scorch.

Started run at 300 watts very slowly increasing it over hours to 800 watts until it started dripping and then bumped to 1000 watts through the run. 4.5 gallon charge took 7 hours since I heated so slowly and then ran slowly. So, I think the scorch is mostly pellicle. It's odd that I didn't smell burn during the run but the distillate did have a slight acrid aftertaste (only tasted a few times because of the infection).

I'm running the test again with a clean boiler to know for certain where the scorch came from. And then I'd like to see if I can run any faster - 7+ hour strip is painful. I'm tight on space and hesitant to spend more building a steam rig but not if strips take that long I'll lose patience pretty quick.

[The Booze Pipe]

Well that failed...but I'm not convinced it was the beer. After pouring in the beer I smelled an infection from the boiler and after pouring out the backset after the run there were bits of infection pellicle that poured out as well. I'm in the habit of spraying out my boiler after use, but it's been a couple months since last use and I must not have done that and didn't check before pouring in the beer. I went ahead and ran it since it's a test anyway, not thinking about how there might be a pellicle in the boiler that could scorch.

Started run at 300 watts very slowly increasing it over hours to 800 watts until it started dripping and then bumped to 1000 watts through the run. 4.5 gallon charge took 7 hours since I heated so slowly and then ran slowly. So, I think the scorch is mostly pellicle. It's odd that I didn't smell burn during the run but the distillate did have a slight acrid aftertaste (only tasted a few times because of the infection).

I'm running the test again with a clean boiler to know for certain where the scorch came from. And then I'd like to see if I can run any faster - 7+ hour strip is painful. I'm tight on space and hesitant to spend more building a steam rig but not if strips take that long I'll lose patience pretty quick.

Bummer CK! I just spent two hours yesterday scrubbing my element. I heated up at full power 5500w then reduced to strip at half power. Everything worked out fine. I noticed the foam and wash went down so bumped up the power. I’m thinking that’s what did for me. But can’t be certain at this point.

How clear was your beer going into the still?

[Bolverk]

Ooof

Gonna be honest, the only reason I did all this, is because I love high ryes...
viewtopic.php?t=92012

Check out the steam sub forum, lots of great ideas there.

[ckdistills]

Ooof

Gonna be honest, the only reason I did all this, is because I love high ryes...
viewtopic.php?t=92012

Check out the steam sub forum, lots of great ideas there.

I've been following your build! Looks like you've got it dialed in now. I'm stubborn enough that I want to know if this protocol will work before moving over to steam...even if that's where I ultimately end up because this way is too slow.

[ckdistills]

Bummer CK! I just spent two hours yesterday scrubbing my element. I heated up at full power 5500w then reduced to strip at half power. Everything worked out fine. I noticed the foam and wash went down so bumped up the power. I’m thinking that’s what did for me. But can’t be certain at this point.

How clear was your beer going into the still?

Try heating it slower and then boosting power to whatever your condenser can keep up with once it starts dripping. For bourbon type mashes, I usually heat at 2k - 2.5k watts and then bump to 3 or 3.5k and have never scorched (might be able to do it at full 3.5k I've just never tried). As I understand you want to minimize the temperature delta between the element and the beer if you're scorching.

Beer wasn't very clear and I don't think that high rye mashes really clear. I did wait for the trub to settle out and was careful to not get that into the boiler. If this is going to work for me it needs to work with beer that's still cloudy.