Why CCVM?

[NormandieStill]

I really don't know why people always mention cost as though it is a significant factor. A VM doesn't require a Tee or any Tri-Clamp connections. Connections can be welded, brazed or even soldered. One could use threaded fittings if they wanted to. Tri-Clamp is just one 'option'. A VM head can easily be a "drop-in upgrade" by simply adding one cheap Tri-Clamp ferrule. Ideally during the original planning of a still build, things like this can be considered if they took the time to understand how different stills function, how they are operated, the benefits and drawbacks of each.

People mention cost, because not everyone has money to burn. Parts are not always as available internationally as they are in the US. I spent a long time looking before realising that the highly popular union connector just doesn't exist on this side of the atlantic. Triclamp connections let me buy one set of parts which serve duty as pot still head, CCVM still head, and RIMS tube system. In addition to a low operating budget, I don't have the space to have things sat around in triplicate.

I took a look on Aliexpress and in the best case I can get a FF1" ball valve but fitting it inline into my tri-clamp setup will take a pair of K64-DN25 adaptors, each of which costs the same amount as the valve. This is an upgrade that I'll be making at some point because I want the convenience of the VM system, but it would have added at least 25% to the original cost of the parts for the still head. I don't see any source for stainless valves that would allow me to connect them copper directly, so at some point I would need to go from copper to stainless thread, which doesn't exist as a part here in France. I could fit brass, but I don't want brass in the vapour path, especially just upstream of the condenser.

In actual function the VM and CCVM are the same. On mine, I use a flat piece of steel between the coils to hold the RC in place. By rotating the flat steel I can "screw" the coil up or down. It's certainly not as simple as turning a handle, but for two to three runs per year, it's not exactly hardship either. I don't think that you realise how simple a CCVM is to operate. The only distinct advantage that your setup has is the ability to optimise the cooling water flow and potentially reduce overcooling of the reflux.

Do you really think that not one of the many users of CCVMs has not already weighed up the pros and cons (as best they can without experience) before settling on it? Everyone has different criteria. Yours include comfort of use, presumably because you make a fair number of neutral runs. My include cost and re-usability because I'm not blessed with an overabundance of storage space, and any hope of building a dedicated shed for distilling and brewing depends on not spending more money elsewhere.

[kimbodious]

Do you really think that not one of the many users of CCVMs has not already weighed up the pros and cons (as best they can without experience) before settling on it?

I started out with a CM then went to VM before settling on CCVM. My CCVM was by far the cheapest to construct and the easiest to run.

Some users have a lot to say about CCVM’s without ever having constructed and operated one. Everyone are entitled to have opinions and make assumptions but without actual experience it doesn’t matter for much because it is uninformed.

I don’t own a CCVM anymore, we simply don’t require that much neutral spirit but if that changed I would definitely construct another CCVM.

[MooseMan]

I don’t own a CCVM anymore, we simply don’t require that much neutral spirit but if that changed I would definitely construct another CCVM.

Shocked to hear that Kim!

It was primarily your influence that lead me to CCVM for my reflux still choice.

I'll admit, even though we drink quite a lot of Gin in my house, I only need to do 2 neutral runs a year really, so I can see why you wouldn't need one if you don't need the neutral.

[Salt Must Flow]

I really don't know why people always mention cost as though it is a significant factor. A VM doesn't require a Tee or any Tri-Clamp connections. Connections can be welded, brazed or even soldered. One could use threaded fittings if they wanted to. Tri-Clamp is just one 'option'. A VM head can easily be a "drop-in upgrade" by simply adding one cheap Tri-Clamp ferrule. Ideally during the original planning of a still build, things like this can be considered if they took the time to understand how different stills function, how they are operated, the benefits and drawbacks of each.

People mention cost, because not everyone has money to burn. Parts are not always as available internationally as they are in the US. I spent a long time looking before realising that the highly popular union connector just doesn't exist on this side of the atlantic. Triclamp connections let me buy one set of parts which serve duty as pot still head, CCVM still head, and RIMS tube system. In addition to a low operating budget, I don't have the space to have things sat around in triplicate.

I took a look on Aliexpress and in the best case I can get a FF1" ball valve but fitting it inline into my tri-clamp setup will take a pair of K64-DN25 adaptors, each of which costs the same amount as the valve. This is an upgrade that I'll be making at some point because I want the convenience of the VM system, but it would have added at least 25% to the original cost of the parts for the still head. I don't see any source for stainless valves that would allow me to connect them copper directly, so at some point I would need to go from copper to stainless thread, which doesn't exist as a part here in France. I could fit brass, but I don't want brass in the vapour path, especially just upstream of the condenser.

In actual function the VM and CCVM are the same. On mine, I use a flat piece of steel between the coils to hold the RC in place. By rotating the flat steel I can "screw" the coil up or down. It's certainly not as simple as turning a handle, but for two to three runs per year, it's not exactly hardship either. I don't think that you realise how simple a CCVM is to operate. The only distinct advantage that your setup has is the ability to optimise the cooling water flow and potentially reduce overcooling of the reflux.

Do you really think that not one of the many users of CCVMs has not already weighed up the pros and cons (as best they can without experience) before settling on it? Everyone has different criteria. Yours include comfort of use, presumably because you make a fair number of neutral runs. My include cost and re-usability because I'm not blessed with an overabundance of storage space, and any hope of building a dedicated shed for distilling and brewing depends on not spending more money elsewhere.

Again ... cost is not a limiting factor because you've overlooked other options. This fitting will attach directly to a valve. A half coupling could be welded, brazed or even soldered to a column therefore allowing common and readily available fittings to be used. You can weld a half nipple to the column allowing the valve to be threaded directly to it. You are not limited or restricted to using expensive Tri-Clamp adapters. You can keep it simple because there are many other options.

You could have two cheap ferrules welded to a valve. They could be brazed or even soldered.

Can you observe your vapor temp while stabilizing the column? With a VM you can so optimizing cooling water flow is not the "only distinct advantage" to my setup. I also mentioned that doing that is NOT REQUIRED therefore that is a non-issue.

[Salt Must Flow]

Do you really think that not one of the many users of CCVMs has not already weighed up the pros and cons (as best they can without experience) before settling on it?

I started out with a CM then went to VM before settling on CCVM. My CCVM was by far the cheapest to construct and the easiest to run.

Some users have a lot to say about CCVM’s without ever having constructed and operated one. Everyone are entitled to have opinions and make assumptions but without actual experience it doesn’t matter for much because it is uninformed.

I don’t own a CCVM anymore, we simply don’t require that much neutral spirit but if that changed I would definitely construct another CCVM.

Are you saying that someone has to manually raise and lower their reflux condenser before they could possibly KNOW that they would prefer to simply turn a valve? That doesn't make any sense at all. It's not a complicated thing to understand.

[kimbodious]

Are you saying that someone has to manually raise and lower their reflux condenser before they could possibly KNOW that they would prefer to simply turn a valve? That doesn't make any sense at all. It's not a complicated thing to understand.

I used to turn a valve when I had a VM before I decided to construct and operate a CCVM I am not having any trouble understanding my decisions and subsequent observations

[NormandieStill]

Again ... cost is not a limiting factor because you've overlooked other options. This fitting will attach directly to a valve. A half coupling could be welded, brazed or even soldered to a column therefore allowing common and readily available fittings to be used. You can weld a half nipple to the column allowing the valve to be threaded directly to it. You are not limited or restricted to using expensive Tri-Clamp adapters. You can keep it simple because there are many other options.

You could have two cheap ferrules welded to a valve. They could be brazed or even soldered.

You're not listening. We don't all live in the US. Some of those options just don't exist. I cannot get any copper with threads. It simply does not exist here. And if managed to source it from the US (ignoring the shipping costs which remove any cost benefit) it would be incompatible with our copper pipe which is metric!

I get the impression that pretty much everyone over there lives near someone who has a Tig welder. None of the local metalworkers near me has one. I would need to travel to the nearest city and go to one of the larger "chaudronnier". At that point you can be damn sure that I'm not going to get any welding done in exchange for beer! My local fabricator offered to mig weld two ferrules onto my keg for about 20 times what I paid for both the keg and the ferrules... with no guarantee of success. Soldering butt joints like that is a recipe for disaster. And at some point you risk over heating the seal material.

Can you observe your vapor temp while stabilizing the column? With a VM you can so optimizing cooling water flow is not the "only distinct advantage" to my setup. I also mentioned that doing that is NOT REQUIRED therefore that is a non-issue.

OK. So you have two advantages. I don't use a thermometer for column stabilisation. It's an optimisation that I've not yet found necessary.

With the greatest possible respect for your contributions to the forum, you're entire argument centers around the assumption that your personal situation is representative of all distillers. It is not. You seem to be unable to comprehend that the range of parts and techniques that are available to you may simply be unavailable elsewhere. And that that things that you find to be important may not be the same as other's.

When I put together my pot still head I looked at all the possible solutions before settling on the tri-clamp kit that I made. I could have gone with a double elbow but instead included a tee and an end cap knowing that this would let me upgrade to a CCVM in the future once I had made a coil and column. I was also aware that I could further upgrade to a VM with the addition of more materials should that prove interesting. I've been running my CCVM for over 2 years now without the feeling that the lack of a valve is holding me back. Why do you refuae to acknowledge that other people's experience and circumstances are just as valid as yours?

[Salt Must Flow]

Again ... cost is not a limiting factor because you've overlooked other options. This fitting will attach directly to a valve. A half coupling could be welded, brazed or even soldered to a column therefore allowing common and readily available fittings to be used. You can weld a half nipple to the column allowing the valve to be threaded directly to it. You are not limited or restricted to using expensive Tri-Clamp adapters. You can keep it simple because there are many other options.

You could have two cheap ferrules welded to a valve. They could be brazed or even soldered.

You're not listening. We don't all live in the US. Some of those options just don't exist. I cannot get any copper with threads. It simply does not exist here. And if managed to source it from the US (ignoring the shipping costs which remove any cost benefit) it would be incompatible with our copper pipe which is metric!

I get the impression that pretty much everyone over there lives near someone who has a Tig welder. None of the local metalworkers near me has one. I would need to travel to the nearest city and go to one of the larger "chaudronnier". At that point you can be damn sure that I'm not going to get any welding done in exchange for beer! My local fabricator offered to mig weld two ferrules onto my keg for about 20 times what I paid for both the keg and the ferrules... with no guarantee of success. Soldering butt joints like that is a recipe for disaster. And at some point you risk over heating the seal material.

Can you observe your vapor temp while stabilizing the column? With a VM you can so optimizing cooling water flow is not the "only distinct advantage" to my setup. I also mentioned that doing that is NOT REQUIRED therefore that is a non-issue.

OK. So you have two advantages. I don't use a thermometer for column stabilisation. It's an optimisation that I've not yet found necessary.

With the greatest possible respect for your contributions to the forum, you're entire argument centers around the assumption that your personal situation is representative of all distillers. It is not. You seem to be unable to comprehend that the range of parts and techniques that are available to you may simply be unavailable elsewhere. And that that things that you find to be important may not be the same as other's.

When I put together my pot still head I looked at all the possible solutions before settling on the tri-clamp kit that I made. I could have gone with a double elbow but instead included a tee and an end cap knowing that this would let me upgrade to a CCVM in the future once I had made a coil and column. I was also aware that I could further upgrade to a VM with the addition of more materials should that prove interesting. I've been running my CCVM for over 2 years now without the feeling that the lack of a valve is holding me back. Why do you refuae to acknowledge that other people's experience and circumstances are just as valid as yours?

I have never made a single assumption. I merely pointed out how ridiculous it is that people always say VM is too expensive and use that as the first justification for CCVM. It isn't true because there are MANY different ways to connect parts.

Again you've overlooked all of the the other common options that I listed previously that use common threaded fittings. You are capable of soldering or brazing aren't you? You're not going to tell me your country doesn't have solder, brazing rods or basic fittings now are you? It's almost like people make excuses as to why they can't achieve what so many others have done with far less.

[Setsumi]

I just do not see why anybody should justify why they use a CCVM head. BUT let me try, again. It does not need a valve in the vapour path, yes you do need to raise the condenser. It does work just like a VM.

Thank you DAD. And I should also acknowledge Manu for his CCLM.

[Sporacle]

I just really like my CCVM, hopefully people will continue to search and use Kimbos modular build. I know it has helped a lot of people.
Turn a valve or lift a RC it's pretty much the same
As long as the product tastes good.

I've always used the simplicity as my reasoning, one point to note is that I strip with mine and blank the T so not having a valve is one less thing to go wrong

[kimbodious]

Thank you DAD. And I should also acknowledge Manu for his CCLM.

Hear hear I was so blown away by the developments they so generously shared to the world. Blessed are the innovators! They opened my eyes to the possibility of an affordable modular system that could be constructed from prefabricated pieces.

It was the only way that I was ever going to have an affordable but effective reflux column still! All I ever wanted to do was to draw people’s attention to a cheaper better alternative than an off the shelf reflux still and something they could obtain and construct without having the skills, tools, time and access to a workshop. It pleases and humbles me when people say my posts helped them, please pass it forward!

[NormandieStill]

I have never made a single assumption. I merely pointed out how ridiculous it is that people always say VM is too expensive and use that as the first justification for CCVM. It isn't true because there are MANY different ways to connect parts.

Again you've overlooked all of the the other common options that I listed previously that use common threaded fittings. You are capable of soldering or brazing aren't you? You're not going to tell me your country doesn't have solder, brazing rods or basic fittings now are you? It's almost like people make excuses as to why they can't achieve what so many others have done with far less.

I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall here.

I cannot get any copper with threads. It simply does not exist here. And if managed to source it from the US (ignoring the shipping costs which remove any cost benefit) it would be incompatible with our copper pipe which is metric!

What you call "basic fittings" are not universal. Each country has their own way of doing construction that has evolved over the years. For example, France has never used copper pipe for waste water. Once it would have iron (Or an outdoor toilet directly into a hole) and since it was possible it has been plastic. So the 3" copper pipe does not exist here. It's not that it's expensive, I'd have to find a company to custom make it for me! And there are no fittings.

Likewise there are no threaded copper fittings. Threaded fittings here are brass. I can easily solder or thread brass but i dont want it in the vapour path (or in the still at all if i can avoid it).

It's not ridiculous because it's true for lots of us. And even if you ignore everything I've said (Which you already seem to be doing ), compared to a CCVM, a VM still requires an extra valve. Which by definition makes it more expensive.

[Saltbush Bill]

I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall here

I'm 100% sure you are......your only going to hurt your head for no result.
No comprehend that pipe sizes and fittings are not the same in every corner of the globe, and that some of us have to make the best of what is available to us and what we have at hand at the time.
I'll just stick to my shitty old 3 inch Boka anyway, as I've read that they are fiddly piles of shit too.

[still_stirrin]

… (Or an outdoor toilet directly into a hole) …

I know what you mean … a few years back I visited central Europe and when on the autobahn in eastern France, we stopped at one of the roadside rest areas to use the facility. And low and behold, the “toilet” there was one of those “squat and go” holes. Not exactly what I would have expected, coming from “this side of the Atlantic”.
ss

[The Booze Pipe]

Why is everyone getting so emotional over this this hobby by design is, “what works best for you,” it’s part of what makes it so challenging; there’s a 100 ways to achieve the same goal.

Besides, I shit in a hole every day

That being said lol I have access to every part and material in the world, so it’s hard for me to understand that others don’t.

[Salt Must Flow]

I have never made a single assumption. I merely pointed out how ridiculous it is that people always say VM is too expensive and use that as the first justification for CCVM. It isn't true because there are MANY different ways to connect parts.

Again you've overlooked all of the the other common options that I listed previously that use common threaded fittings. You are capable of soldering or brazing aren't you? You're not going to tell me your country doesn't have solder, brazing rods or basic fittings now are you? It's almost like people make excuses as to why they can't achieve what so many others have done with far less.

I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall here.

I cannot get any copper with threads. It simply does not exist here. And if managed to source it from the US (ignoring the shipping costs which remove any cost benefit) it would be incompatible with our copper pipe which is metric!

What you call "basic fittings" are not universal. Each country has their own way of doing construction that has evolved over the years. For example, France has never used copper pipe for waste water. Once it would have iron (Or an outdoor toilet directly into a hole) and since it was possible it has been plastic. So the 3" copper pipe does not exist here. It's not that it's expensive, I'd have to find a company to custom make it for me! And there are no fittings.

Likewise there are no threaded copper fittings. Threaded fittings here are brass. I can easily solder or thread brass but i dont want it in the vapour path (or in the still at all if i can avoid it).

It's not ridiculous because it's true for lots of us. And even if you ignore everything I've said (Which you already seem to be doing ), compared to a CCVM, a VM still requires an extra valve. Which by definition makes it more expensive.

Basic fittings ... couplings, nipples, street elbows, etc... I mentioned these fittings quite a while ago. If you don't want brass, well you can tin brass. You'll say you don't want to tin brass. Well there's stainless steel. Next you'll say you can't get stainless fittings. I say you can order fittings online and you'll give some excuse why you can't. That would make you the outlier. I say people have 5 digits on their hand then you'll say you have 4. That makes you the exception, not the rule. No one cares about the outlier because the outlier doesn't represent the vast majority.

[MooseMan]

I feel that this has descended into a pissing match now, mainly between two forum members who have a lot to offer here and for whom I've developed a healthy respect, considering I don't even know them.

Let's just agree to disagree on this guys, can we?

We all make choices based on our own personal circumstances, whether that be cost based, skills based, time based etc.
We makes our bed, we sleeps in it.

[OldRanch]

1aaA
So opening a valve 3 times and initially adjusting water flow to the condensers is "a lot more fiddling" than you do? Ok

Wow you're making a whole lot of assumptions there.

As I now know my CCVM quite well, and as I'm a fairly lazy operator for neutral, I know how many coils need to be visible out of the top of the tee. So I have two positions, full reflux and take-off.

I am planning on switching to a VM because I do think that adjusting a valve is easier, but if I didn't build one originally it's because there's an added cost which is significant enough that it dissuaded me. Unless your $20 valve comes with 2" triclamp fittings on both ends it's not a drop-in upgrade and the final cost will be significantly more than that.

I really don't know why people always mention cost as though it is a significant factor. A VM doesn't require a Tee or any Tri-Clamp connections. Connections can be welded, brazed or even soldered. One could use threaded fittings if they wanted to. Tri-Clamp is just one 'option'. A VM head can easily be a "drop-in upgrade" by simply adding one cheap Tri-Clamp ferrule. Ideally during the original planning of a still build, things like this can be considered if they took the time to understand how different stills function, how they are operated, the benefits and drawbacks of each.


VM Simple.jpg

Hey man, its okay. your still is really cool and were all stoked you like it.

You mustve misread my reply. I dont think your still takes alot of fiddling. It takes alot more fiddling than my CCVM, and alot more than alot of our CCVMs. I dont like to fiddle.

It feels like you're being argumentative for no reason. My all stainless tri clamp still saves alot in weight and money by not having a valve or required connections; not to mention welding stainless is fairly costly as well, so that retort goes out of the window.

Im done defending CCVM's, the proven ease of build and planning compared to VM, cost savings compared to VM, weight savings compared to VM, less fiddling than VM, all makes them a great option, maybe even the best option. But its obvious were not going to agree, and thats fine. Our stills produce damn good liquor and were really good at running them. Cheers.

[zukram]

And why is nobody talking about CCLM? It works really nice for me. Easy to control and easy to add an E-arc-system to it.
0-100% reflux, no expensive parts. (unless you want to control it with electronics).

Only difference from CCVM i that you need an almost 90 degree turn on top so you have a tilted pipe to put the condenser spiral in and you make the liquid output about 1/2 the condenser, so if you slide the condenser in, the output ends up dry, if you pull it out all the way, all condensate drizzles down the output. Very easy.

By having the condenser pipe 1/2 of the column it's really easy to control too.

[Bolverk]

And why is nobody talking about CCLM? It works really nice for me. Easy to control and easy to add an E-arc-system to it.
0-100% reflux, no expensive parts. (unless you want to control it with electronics).

Only difference from CCVM i that you need an almost 90 degree turn on top so you have a tilted pipe to put the condenser spiral in and you make the liquid output about 1/2 the condenser, so if you slide the condenser in, the output ends up dry, if you pull it out all the way, all condensate drizzles down the output. Very easy.

By having the condenser pipe 1/2 of the column it's really easy to control too.

I didn't originally ask about why LM because it makes sense why someone would go this route.

[zukram]

Ok