Clearing Sugar Wash - Are Conical Tanks Effective?

[Salt Must Flow]

I was wondering from anyone here that has experience using conical bottoms could confirm if this will work as I hope it will.

I'm very seriously considering purchasing a 60 degree conical tank to clear my sugar washes in. After fermentation, I intend to thoroughly degass using a submersible pond pump, add the Bentonite Clay slurry then pump all of the contents of the fermenter into the conical tank. Overnight my sugar washes clear quite well. The trub consolidates a bit more over another 24 hrs. I'm hoping I can then crack the bottom valve and effectively drain away all the trub. I'm hoping to be able to use a conical tank similarly as a separatory funnel to separate the trub very easily. I have no intentions of fermenting inside it at this time.

Is this a reasonable expectation or is it more likely that the trub will tend to 'stick' to the walls and not act like a separatory funnel?

[jonnys_spirit]

I make wines and will have sediment dropping that takes a few months and racking to fully clear. After the first couple it's pretty minimal but sediment does continue to dust the bottom and sides of the carboy when I rack approximately every three months. This is without bentonite or other fining agents. I find that the early settling of sediment will stick to the sides a little and few sharp twists of the carboy will knock it off the walls and allow it to better drop to the bottom over a period of time...

Slightly different than a sugar wash but a sharp twist may help loosen some that sticks to the walls and allow it to settle near the drain...

Cheers!
-jonny

[SW_Shiner]

I’ve got a 70L conical fermenter and it works great for me. By the time ferment is finished and let sit for a couple days, most of the yeast settles out and sits below my take off line. If it doesn’t, I can let some of the yeast sludge out of the bottle before drawing off the finished wash.

[Salt Must Flow]

I make wines and will have sediment dropping that takes a few months and racking to fully clear. After the first couple it's pretty minimal but sediment does continue to dust the bottom and sides of the carboy when I rack approximately every three months. This is without bentonite or other fining agents. I find that the early settling of sediment will stick to the sides a little and few sharp twists of the carboy will knock it off the walls and allow it to better drop to the bottom over a period of time...

Slightly different than a sugar wash but a sharp twist may help loosen some that sticks to the walls and allow it to settle near the drain...

Cheers!
-jonny

I've always fermented in flat poly drums so it's hard for me to imagine just how well a conical will work. Since I thoroughly thoroughly mix the drum after fermentation, add Bentonite, it clears overnight so I don't imagine anything would stick like it would sitting for months. Even if I let it sit for 2 days. I just don't have any practical experience with conicals. So far it sounds promising.

Making sugar washes is very fast and simple for me. Fermentation is painless. The biggest pain in the ass for me has been racking it off after clearing. I tend to lose more than I would prefer due to the flat bottom drums. I even tip them at an angle to siphon more off. Sometimes I'd pour the trub into a bucket to be able to siphon more off. All of this past effort makes me want to invest in a conical to make racking super simple.

I thought about just getting a 15 gal conical to pump the trub into and allow the trub to clear & separate, but now I'm thinking a 55 gal conical would be MUCH more convenient and less effort.

[Golly]

I think it was this forum, but someone once suggested using Geo textile fabric to filter their wash.
I do it for my bourbon washes now. It drains quickly and is MUCH cheaper than a conical fermenter*.
https://www.bunnings.com.au/grunt-1-x-1 ... c_p1090843

Once your done, just give it a rinse and hang the small piece up to dry and run it again when your ready.

* for the bourbon washes. I ferment on grain, scoop it out and through an Aldi extendable colander first, giving it a good shake to get as much liquid out as I can, and then run the liquid through the Geotextile fabric. It does clog up over time, so if your doing a big batch, it helps to let it strain overnight.

[BoilerMaker]

SMF - I use one like you're considering, except I'm clearing on-grain ferments rather than sugar washes. I ferment in HDPE barrels, wait a few days after the caps drop for it to clear, siphon/pump off what I can into a keggle preheater, then squeeze the rest through a paint strainer bag and mop ringer into the conical, then wait a few more days to clear again before running. Historically I didn't mind the squeezing part like most folks, but didn't have a very good system for clearing and racking after that until getting the conical and I'm happy with it so far. I was basically tipping buckets and barrels trying to get the clear off the top, like you. IMO the conical works better, but again that's my limited experience with all-grain beer rather than a wash.

Golly - I believe Stillerboy was a proponent of geotex fabric and mentioned it a bunch of times. He had good luck with it and posted quite a bit of info IIRC.

[Salt Must Flow]

I think it was this forum, but someone once suggested using Geo textile fabric to filter their wash.
I do it for my bourbon washes now. It drains quickly and is MUCH cheaper than a conical fermenter*.
https://www.bunnings.com.au/grunt-1-x-1 ... c_p1090843

Once your done, just give it a rinse and hang the small piece up to dry and run it again when your ready.

* for the bourbon washes. I ferment on grain, scoop it out and through an Aldi extendable colander first, giving it a good shake to get as much liquid out as I can, and then run the liquid through the Geotextile fabric. It does clog up over time, so if your doing a big batch, it helps to let it strain overnight.

I totally understand the thought of screening or filtering a wash or a mash, but I typically start two 50 gal fermentations within two days. After fermentation I clear them, strip them and then do spirit runs. Clearing is extremely effective. Here is an example of a sample of a sugar wash that was cleared twice. This is why I'm aiming to separate the trub from the cleared wash rather than trying to filter it. I highly doubt even a tight fabric would have this effect.

[NZChris]

How much difference does clearing actually make?
If it does make a difference with your setup, how much copper is there in your still, and where is it?

I've only ever cleared sugar washes when I wasn't able to run them as soon as they went dead and I can't say I that I've noticed a difference.

In an unrelated industry we had hammers on timers on the sides of conical vessels to help fines keep moving to the bottoms of the cones. Attaching a speaker to the cone and playing your favorite music at full volume, Led Zep, Beethoven, whatever, may help keep the trub moving, Dueling Banjos when making UJSSM?

[Bee]

I didn't know sugar washes had to be cleared for distilling.
What problems did you run into?

[MooseMan]

In an unrelated industry we had hammers on timers on the sides of conical vessels to help fines keep moving to the bottoms of the cones. Attaching a speaker to the cone and playing your favorite music at full volume, Led Zep, Beethoven, whatever, may help keep the trub moving, Dueling Banjos when making UJSSM?

"Dueling Banjos when making UJSSM?"

Haha I can hear it now!
It would be like singing to your plants to make them grow better, no?

In the polymer industry vibratory motors are used in conical silos for exactly the same reason, so the fine powders flow nicely down the walls, as they have a tendency to cake up and bridge.

You can buy really cheap DC hobby size ones that could be run off an old DC plug of the correct voltage.

Just an example

[Salt Must Flow]

How much difference does clearing actually make?
If it does make a difference with your setup, how much copper is there in your still, and where is it?

I've only ever cleared sugar washes when I wasn't able to run them as soon as they went dead and I can't say I that I've noticed a difference.

In an unrelated industry we had hammers on timers on the sides of conical vessels to help fines keep moving to the bottoms of the cones. Attaching a speaker to the cone and playing your favorite music at full volume, Led Zep, Beethoven, whatever, may help keep the trub moving, Dueling Banjos when making UJSSM?

I use 4 rolls of copper mesh at the base of my column. The only other copper is my reflux condenser and product condenser. I have a copper thermowell in my boiler, but that's not a meaningful amount.

Clearing, in my experience, made a significant difference. The racked wash smells and tastes much cleaner because the vast majority of all particulates flocculate and settle to the bottom. I'm able to strip with reflux MUCH deeper during the stripping run which produces considerably more low wines and more end product during the spirit run. The low wines smell and taste much cleaner. Most noticeably during the spirit run, tails perceives to be compressed or held back further. Once the vapor temp starts to spike, it doesn't smell or taste anywhere near as bad as it ordinarily would. The tails cut is super obvious and can be determined within 1 pint or even a 1/2 pint. To me, clearing the wash gave similar results to doing two spirit runs.

I've fermented in my boiler and stripped in the same boiler. I've tried racking into the boiler after fermentation leaving what settled solids are in the fermenter. I didn't observe much if any meaningful difference between the two. Clearing made an obvious difference.

Bentonite Clay is so cheap, simple to use, clears overnight, but racking is not fun at all. If a conical would make separation of the trub super simple, it's worth it to me. I'm considering either a 15 gal conical to transfer the trub into (to separate) vs a much larger conical to eliminate the need to transfer the trub (to separate).

[Salt Must Flow]

I didn't know sugar washes had to be cleared for distilling.
What problems did you run into?

They don't require clearing at all. Some of my observations are listed in my previous post. To sum it up, clearing gave similar results to doing two spirit runs. I can strip much deeper (with reflux) which also gives me a significant increase in product after the spirit run. Even when doing so, tails are feint in comparison to not clearing. Clearing with Bentonite Clay is so cheap, it costs less than virtually any other ingredient I use. It costs less than the Vitamin B. I use 210 grams of Bentonite per 50 gallons. I spend more on yeast in just a couple runs than I did for a 50 lb bag of Bentonite Clay. I recall having paid $10 for a 50 lb bag locally. For my results, it seems well worth while doing for me.

[Bee]

To sum it up, clearing gave similar results to doing two spirit runs. I can strip much deeper (with reflux) which also gives me a significant increase in product after the spirit run. Even when doing so, tails are feint in comparison to not clearing.

Have you tried this with any other recipes, like an all-grain?

[Salt Must Flow]

To sum it up, clearing gave similar results to doing two spirit runs. I can strip much deeper (with reflux) which also gives me a significant increase in product after the spirit run. Even when doing so, tails are feint in comparison to not clearing.

Have you tried this with any other recipes, like an all-grain?

No, but I imagine any flavor would be significantly reduced. A small scale test would be easy to do. When I do a test, I typically fill up a carboy to do it in.

[shadylane]

Here's what I use.
A flat bottom fermenter with a wedge to tilt the fermenter a couple degrees towards the drain valve.
For clarities sake, the water jacket, heater, and chiller plumbing isn't shown

[shadylane]

In theory a conical will let you drain off the spent yeast.
I can see were this has benefits for beer brewing. In practice it isn't as good for a sugar wash.
Yeast wants to cling to the sides, so folks bang on the sides trying to get the yeast to slide down.
Right at the moment yeast wants to go to sleep and flocculate, there's banging on the walls.

The best way is to let the spent yeast settle on a flatbottom and then gently decant the clear liquid.
Bentonite and/or cold crashing speeds things up. Clearing isn't as necessary for reflux distilling, but definitely helps for potstill runs.

[Salt Must Flow]

In theory a conical will let you drain off the spent yeast.
I can see were this has benefits for beer brewing. In practice it isn't very good for a sugar wash.

Yeast wants to cling to the sides, so folks bang on the sides trying to get the yeast to slide down.
Right at the moment yeast wants to go to sleep and flocculate, there's banging on the walls.

The best way is to let the spent yeast settle on a flatbottom and then gently decant the clear liquid.

I hear ya, but I don't wait for the yeast to flocculate. After fermentation is complete, I chuck a relatively large submersible pond/fountain pump into the fermenter. I let it run for at least a couple of hours or longer to thoroughly degas the wash. Meanwhile I hydrate the Bentonite Clay. Once hydrated, I pour the slurry into the fermenter and let the pump thoroughly blend it.

When I remove the pump, flocculation begins instantly right before your eyes. Here's a pic just a couple minute or two after removing the pump. The top inch or so is crystal clear and you can see the wash flocculating.

Just a couple minutes later you can see how much more has cleared.

The following day, not even 24 hrs later, I can see everything settled to the bottom of the drum so I typically rack it. This timeline shouldn't encourage the sediment to stick. When I do rack it relatively close to the trub, if I tip the drum at all, the trub immediately seeks level without sticking to the bottom.

[shadylane]

Nice protocol. Degass then use bentonite.
Getting rid of the CO2 first makes the next step easer.

[Salt Must Flow]

Nice protocol. Degass then use bentonite.
Getting rid of the CO2 first makes the next step easer.

Yes, it absolutely does. I find that if it is not fully fermented or not thoroughly degassed, Bentonite creates a slimy foam to float on the surface. The foam would often clear back down through the wash and later form back onto the surface again. I assume it's from the Co2.

A lot of people say it's best to add Bentonite at the very beginning of fermentation, but when I tried that, I recall a similar foam occurred. Each time I cleared the wash AFTER fermentation, everything just fell straight to the bottom and stayed there. The trick is to not get too impatient and let the wash sit for a couple days after fermentation before clearing.

[shadylane]

The trick is to not get too impatient and let the wash sit for a couple days after fermentation before clearing.

Plus one on patients.
I also let the wash finish, then drop the temp from 86'f to 50ish and give it a couple days to clear.
The clearing isn't as dramatic as using bentonite but the trub is firmer and less easily disturbed.

[MooseMan]

The trick is to not get too impatient and let the wash sit for a couple days after fermentation before clearing.

Plus one on patients.
I also let the wash finish, then drop the temp from 86'f to 50ish and give it a couple days to clear.
The clearing isn't as dramatic as using bentonite but the trub is firmer and less easily disturbed.

Yes that's been my experience too, when using an additive to clear, the lees are very loose and will seek level when you tip the fermenter, as SMF said.
But when you cold crash, it turns into almost a paste that literally sticks to the base.
There is a scientific reason for it that I read about in a beer book, maybe John Palmer?

I use a small mesh filter on the end of the racking cane to get virtually every drop of clear liquid after cold crashing. This is the process I use for wines and ciders by the way, not distilling wash/mash.
Much harder to cold crash a 55gal drum though, so I can see why conicals and bentonite are attractive.

[Saltbush Bill]

screenshot.png (10.62 KiB) Viewed 3516 times

What your suggesting there is what Ive done for years Shady. It works particularly well if the tap opening is tiny bit up from the bottom of the fermenter.
Let the wash / mash settle for a while and you can then drain it off getting 99.99% of the wash out without any yeast.
In short , its low tech but works as well as any method that Ive seen or used to separate what you do want from what you don't want.

[Yummyrum]

screenshot.png
What your suggesting there is what Ive done for years Shady. It works particularly well if the tap opening is tiny bit up from the bottom of the fermenter.
Let the wash / mash settle for a while and you can then drain it off getting 99.99% of the wash out without any yeast.
In short , its low tech but works as well as any method that Ive seen or used to separate what you do want from what you don't want.

Same here Salty . My outlet is about 2” above trub settling height . I wait until the wash is a few inches above the outlet then tilt barrel and stick piece of 3x2 under it . ( any sooner and it’s too heavy to tilt …… I like your wedge Shady) Keep moving 3x2 forward as needed . Trub stays pretty much a solid cake .
Never needed Bentonite or other clearing agents .

BTW , do the same with barrel of Rum wash .
Mind , I do let ferments rest for a week or two after finishing .

[Saltbush Bill]

[/quote]

I wait until the wash is a few inches above the outlet then tilt barrel and stick piece of 3x2 under it . ( any sooner and it’s too heavy to tilt …

Never needed Bentonite or other clearing agents

BTW , do the same with barrel of Rum wash .
Mind , I do let ferments rest for a week or two after finishing .

Same as above here Yummy,
One handy hint for newbs who may want to use this method.
There will always be a bit of yeast/ trub settles inside the tap. Turn it on very quickly for a second or two with a bucket under it, then straight off again. That first small amount has any yeast that you didn't want in it......toss that and the rest will be clean.

[greggn]

A flat bottom fermenter with a wedge to tilt the fermenter a couple degrees towards the drain valve.

Well, that's weird. I tilt away from the drain.

Why push trub toward the drain if the point is to decant off it ?

[SW_Shiner]

A flat bottom fermenter with a wedge to tilt the fermenter a couple degrees towards the drain valve.

Well, that's weird. I tilt away from the drain.

Why push trub toward the drain if the point is to decant off it ?

I also tilt towards the drain. With the trub settled it’s pretty much a compacted mass. Tilt it gently and the trub stays but lets you get more of the cleared wash off the top.

[Saltbush Bill]

If you do it right the trub doesn't move......that simple

[shadylane]

A flat bottom fermenter with a wedge to tilt the fermenter a couple degrees towards the drain valve.

Well, that's weird. I tilt away from the drain.

Why push trub toward the drain if the point is to decant off it ?

I can see your point of view.
But what works best depends on how firm the trub is, a sugar wash usually flocculates quickly after it's done. There's nothing left to eat and nothing to cling to.

If the fermenter is tilted away from the valve, there's fermented wash trapped that can't be saved.
This also causes problems with rinsing out the fermenter after use.

[shadylane]

What your suggesting there is what Ive done for years Shady. It works particularly well if the tap opening is tiny bit up from the bottom of the fermenter.

Had to go to the stillhouse and look, cane in right hand, beer in the left and flash light in the other.
The drain tube extends almost an inch above the fermenter floor.

[NZChris]

How much difference does clearing actually make?
If it does make a difference with your setup, how much copper is there in your still, and where is it?

This is something that wasn't answered.

I've always had copper in the main boiler & still head, plus I'm heating with copper elements in the still and copper coil in the preheater. That may be one reason why I've not noticed much difference when running cleared sugar shine compared to murky, compared to other distillers with less copper.

A trick I've been using lately, with success, is upping the pH of Low Wines to over 7 using slaked lime. I buy it at the local building supply store for bugger all. A sack lasts me for years. It also works to precipitate undesirable VOCs out of feints before re-running them. A conical tank would work well for that too, but I don't know that it would be a 'must have'.

For a few years now, I've been saving my feints for an All Feints run through my Bokakob to make high quality neutral, but the slaked lime has been working so well at removing VOCs before the run that I've been experimenting with running it through a pot still instead and I've been very happy with the results.