Feints -- when and how

[Mr_Beer]

This post has some questions regarding Feints - may be obvious to everyone but I still have questions…

I scoured the forum and came up with two posts that seem to answer most questions…
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=24388 by rtalbigr (column still)

viewtopic.php?t=48823&start=30 by Prairiepiss (pot still)

I have a pot still and am focused on flavor. At this time neutrals are of little interest.

My Understanding and Associated Questions
Feints are a collection of heads and tails that did not pass muster from prior spirit runs as best as I can tell. The idea is to not discard, just put in the Feints jar for the future. Is that true?

Mixing feints from multiple types of prior runs will result in a hodgepodge of stuff.
An all feints run of a ‘hodgepodge’ of material may have a good flavor or something unusual. Experimentation will tell. Opinions??

Continually reusing feints over multiple runs will result in a concentration of the off-flavors that caused them to be reserved in the first place. Use once and then probably discard or only save the new batch tails. Opinions??

For flavor purposes, the tails may have the best results flavor but the lowest drinkable yield. Opinions??

Feint runs from ‘all feints’ stock may be less flavorful than mixing the feints with new beer to blend in flavors? Opinions??

Feints are typically only used in the spirit run – is that the consensus??

[jonnys_spirit]

IMG_2069.jpeg

I recycle feints in every spirit run for whiskey or bourbon.

Spirit run this morning included three gallons of feints cut aged for a year on oak and cut specifically for that purpose. 11g low wines, 3g feints, and fresh ferment to top it up. Feints cut from this run will go on oak and be recycled next whiskey spirit run hearts cut goes in the barrel

Cheers,
J

[still_stirrin]

Feints rhymes with “ain’ts”, meaning it’s the “stuff” that doesn’t make it into your “keeper jars”.

Feints from all-grain spirit runs may have a little value to add back to the thumper of a subsequent spirit run. But not a lot. Similarly, feints from a rum spirit run may add a little “signature character” to the thumper of a subsequent spirit run. Again, not a lot.

Sure, they’ll (possibly) boost the proof at the spout of these subsequent spirit runs, but they’ll also introduce some of the flavors you’ve previously rejected from the respective spirit runs.

However, if you recycle feints through a reflux stillhead and run the reflux ratio up high, you’ll likely be able to squeeze some of the alcohol out of your feints. But, after a while of continuously recycling the feints, you likely will end up with a mix of solvents and sludge that is best left as weedkiller. The “yucky stuff” will accumulate in the collection.

Read the forum as you will, but ultimately your best lessons will be those from your still shack.
ss

[Deplorable]

I will add that in my shed, if I am planning subsequent runs, I add the low feints from the prior run to the stripping run of the next batch. The first jar goes in the weed killer. shop cleaner jug, Jar 2 and three goes in the neutral keg, everything else that didn't get blended for keeps, goes in the next stripping run. At the end of the series, all rejected jars except the first, goes in the reflux keg to be turned into neutral.
What comes off the neutral run that I don't keep gets used as brake cleaner/solvent, and what stayed in the boiler gets heavily diluted and poured down the drain.
About 2 years ago now I did an experiment where I took the two outer jars that I didn't keep and blended them together and put up a jar of what I called "The Outer Banks" That jar is smelling like it's going to be something worth keeping down the road and may be something I repeat in future runs.

Like SS said, you really need to experiment and decide for yourself if it's worth doing anything at all with your feints. I did an all feints run on my pot still a couple years ago, and it's been on used oak under a loose lid for over two years in the rafters, Its still not something Id serve to a bum and will likely just get dumped in a bon fire at some point to free up the glass.

[Sporacle]

Feints are a constant in my rum runs.
They allow for a higher abv charge in my 4 plate.
The higher abv seems to allow for a more stable run in terms of input in relation to heat and water flow.
My fores cut to the cleaner jar is very generous, probably a bit under 10% of the total run.
I don't notice a increase in the amount of feints over a number of runs, it's actually pretty constant.

All feints through my CCVM have resulted in a very nice white spirit, mix of rum and all grains

As said experiment and see what works for you

[rubberduck71]

I use the feints from my A/G run in the subsequent sugarhead. The sugarhead feints either goes into feints corny keg, or I may save them for next run of the same exact recipe.

[NZChris]

My Understanding and Associated Questions[/i][/b]
Feints are a collection of heads and tails that did not pass muster from prior spirit runs as best as I can tell. The idea is to not discard, just put in the Feints jar for the future. Is that true?

That's what I do. I also put a used or new oak stave in with them while the collection builds.

Mixing feints from multiple types of prior runs will result in a hodgepodge of stuff.
An all feints run of a ‘hodgepodge’ of material may have a good flavor or something unusual. Experimentation will tell. Opinions??

Try not to mismatch flavors.

Continually reusing feints over multiple runs will result in a concentration of the off-flavors that caused them to be reserved in the first place. Use once and then probably discard or only save the new batch tails. Opinions??

That depends on how the distiller does the stripping runs and chooses the heart cut. Some seem to get away with it indefinitely, I don't.

For flavor purposes, the tails may have the best results flavor but the lowest drinkable yield. Opinions??

The flavor of any product is both the early and late VOCs combined. To keep it balanced, you need both ends.

Feint runs from ‘all feints’ stock may be less flavorful than mixing the feints with new beer to blend in flavors? Opinions??

There should be plenty of flavor as long as water or neutral feints haven't been added and the heart cut is well chosen.

I do my 'Queen's run' by adding the feints collection to fresh wash of the same, or a matching, product.

Feints are typically only used in the spirit run – is that the consensus??

That depends on how the distiller does the stripping runs and chooses the heart cut. It doesn't work for me.
They can be recycled by adding them to the stripping runs.

[Twisted Brick]

How you use your feints will be an individual thing, determined by multiple tests. Since you're not a sugar wash kinda guy nor a refluxer, Mr Beer, I think you can narrow the tests down to find out what you like best, provided you don't mix/match feints from different grain bills. For many of us, re-using feints isn't about reclaiming a percentage of alcohol as it is about augmenting flavor.

[The Baker]

Mr_Beer said, "Continually reusing feints over multiple runs will result in a concentration of the off-flavors that caused them to be reserved in the first place. Use once and then probably discard or only save the new batch tails. Opinions??"

Maybe true.
But I think if you break down the feints with water before distilling this should remove a lot of the
undesirable elements...

I also use a pot still.

Geoff

[bilgriss]

To not eternally concentrate the stuff I don't want in feints, I use the following strategy:

Toss the fores into the firestarter/solvent jar at a rate slightly higher than I would on a normal spirit run. No hard criteria, just a bit more. Keep the rest as feints.

Keep tails as normal in a spirit run from jars I don't use. Tails will naturally get truncated, as you will leave behind stuff in your boiler. So I'm ridding myself of a lot of the end of the run without any special strategy.

Works for me; I think others may use a variation on this strategy, and some may just keep everything.

[MooseMan]

I think it's just a personal thing and there's no real right/wrong way

My way is to keep heads, tails and anything that doesn't make the cut from pot runs and add them to either the next spirit run of the same product, or I have occasionally run them through my mini still indoors when I've had spare time.

Reflux heads I'm building a stock of until I have enough for a full boiler, then I'll raise the pH to 9+ and run to recover what I can as neutral. The feints from that run will go in the cleaning fluid bottles.
Reflux tails stay in the backset and go to waste.

[shadylane]

Some folks recycle whiskey feints.
My preference is to turn anything that didn't make the cut into vodka.

[Mr_Beer]

Well, this tread was certainly different than what I expected.

As many of you know, I have some experience with beer/wine and mead. In those venues the variables seem to be primarily related to the ingredients, chemistry and process elements.

As I started distilling it never occurred to me that there were a number of issues that were related to subjective matters, equipment differences,. production goals and process related variables. Nowhere has this been more evident than in the discussion of Feints.

Thanks to everyone who contributed. All of you contributors have helped me with prior questions and patient explanations. It is much appreciated.

Deplorable and SS both said

you really need to experiment and decide for yourself if it's worth doing anything at all with your feints

.

Twisted brick said

How you use your feints will be an individual thing, determined by multiple tests

What I have gleaned from this thread is…

Feints, processed via column still equipment, loose most/many of their flavor characteristics but in turn contribute to the final product with the remnants of ethanol in the Feints jar.

Pot still equipment is capable of using/saving many of the flavor elements in a subsequent spirit run when Feints are included.

Be careful – if wrong stuff is saved and/or constantly recycled the accumulation of off-flavored stuff may be quite disappointing.

Keeping ‘like kind’ feints together seems the best approach. At this time all my batches are grain based whisky type. Future activities in rum and other inputs will be different.

My current approach will be to collect some Heads and some Tails as feints, let them age as they sit on previously used wood pieces and then add the feints and wood, in modest proportions (less than 20%), to the spirit run of future grain based product.

Wait and sample and adjust appropriately.

Thank you again

[shadylane]

A thought.
Don't be too quick dumping jars into the feints bucket.
Leave them in their individual jars for awhile.
Ya might want to sample them to see what changes with time.

[sadie33]

A thought.
Don't be too quick dumping jars into the feints bucket.
Leave them in their individual jars for awhile.
Ya might want to sample them to see what changes with time.

hmmm, hadn't thought about that. Got me wondering what the average % is in feints. I guess it would depend on the ratio of heads to tails. Now I feel like testing the % on all my feints jars... then tasting them

[Bee]

I don't see any reason to put feints on oak. At least not until after they've been run as an all-feints run.

[Mr_Beer]

The feints are not 'on oak' for any other reason than I have used sticks and a suggestion was to put them in the feints jar and then dump into the pot during the spirit run. That way I get some use from them and the respondent (to a different thread) indicated they would add some amount of flavor.

Seemed useful -- will experiment and see.

[jonnys_spirit]

I don't see any reason to put feints on oak. At least not until after they've been run as an all-feints run.

I do it for all my feints and it makes me feel like I've made progress when it sits around for a year and get's all dark Sometimes I take a bottle of the oaked feints and put it in the pantry and label it "Flambé" - I might stick an orange peel in there too ..

Cheers!
-j

[Twisted Brick]

I don't see any reason to put feints on oak. At least not until after they've been run as an all-feints run.

Charred sticks absorb unwanted volatiles just as a barrel does.

[NZChris]

I don't see any reason to put feints on oak. At least not until after they've been run as an all-feints run.

I do it because I tried it to see what would happen and liked the results. I put the wood in the pot for the run, then discard it.

[Dancing4dan]

Some folks recycle whiskey feints.
My preference is to turn anything that didn't make the cut into vodka.

Yup.

[Stags]

I prefer to toss my feints. When I’ve used them to charge the thump keg, I’ve Ted gotten higher output but also significantly more feints. I don’t see it being worth so I toss.

That said, I’ve also had some fantastic results from using feints. A few months ago I made a spiced peach brandy that was delightful if a little heavy handed with cinnamon. I used those fronts to charge the thump for a run of Panela rum. I think that’s gonna be a real winner in another three months or so.

All of that to say, do what works for you OP

[vernue]

been gone for while, and just saw this thread:

- talking to the head of a commercial distillery a few months ago, and he said that about 1/3 of his spirit runs were feints. it is the best rye I ever had.

- some of my best whiskeys and most popular ones have been feint runs. had some real stinkers too.

- i try not to mix feints from different recipes, but feints from a peat smoked single malt will add a nice touch to any AG feints run, if you like that kinda thing

[Saltbush Bill]

My fients go straight into the next run of the same product....always have and always will......
No need to store them up and run them separately imo.

[Tōtōchtin]

I think it's just a personal thing and there's no real right/wrong way

My way is to keep heads, tails and anything that doesn't make the cut from pot runs and add them to either the next spirit run of the same product, or I have occasionally run them through my mini still indoors when I've had spare time.

Reflux heads I'm building a stock of until I have enough for a full boiler, then I'll raise the pH to 9+ and run to recover what I can as neutral. The feints from that run will go in the cleaning fluid bottles.
Reflux tails stay in the backset and go to waste.

Curious why you go up to pH 9 , do you do this for a flavor change?
Tōtō

[jonnys_spirit]

My fients go straight into the next run of the same product....always have and always will......
No need to store them up and run them separately imo.

Same here - I rather enjoy the generational concept as well with recycling backset, solera aging, or a forever barrel.

It's like feedback loop in a way and you can elect to use less or more in the different processes but the idea that some of my earliest ferments and distillations live on in my current production has a lot of value to me because I miss them when they're all gone..

Cheers,
jonny

[MooseMan]

I think it's just a personal thing and there's no real right/wrong way

My way is to keep heads, tails and anything that doesn't make the cut from pot runs and add them to either the next spirit run of the same product, or I have occasionally run them through my mini still indoors when I've had spare time.

Reflux heads I'm building a stock of until I have enough for a full boiler, then I'll raise the pH to 9+ and run to recover what I can as neutral. The feints from that run will go in the cleaning fluid bottles.
Reflux tails stay in the backset and go to waste.

Curious why you go up to pH 9 , do you do this for a flavor change?
Tōtō

Base Ester Hydrolysis is what I'm aiming for.
I still don't have enough built up to do a full reflux feints run so I haven't actually tried it yet, but I've done plenty of research and had a PM conversation with a member who does it to good effect.

At the risk of being boring, this is a good short read on it.

https://chem.libretexts.org/Courses/Eas ... _of_Esters

[Tōtōchtin]

I think it's just a personal thing and there's no real right/wrong way

My way is to keep heads, tails and anything that doesn't make the cut from pot runs and add them to either the next spirit run of the same product, or I have occasionally run them through my mini still indoors when I've had spare time.

Reflux heads I'm building a stock of until I have enough for a full boiler, then I'll raise the pH to 9+ and run to recover what I can as neutral. The feints from that run will go in the cleaning fluid bottles.
Reflux tails stay in the backset and go to waste.

Curious why you go up to pH 9 , do you do this for a flavor change?
Tōtō

Base Ester Hydrolysis is what I'm aiming for.
I still don't have enough built up to do a full reflux feints run so I haven't actually tried it yet, but I've done plenty of research and had a PM conversation with a member who does it to good effect.

At the risk of being boring, this is a good short read on it.

https://chem.libretexts.org/Courses/Eas ... _of_Esters

If you going for neutral spirits what do the esters do for you?
Mr. Beer I didn't mean to hijack your thread, continue on
Tōtō

[Mr_Beer]

No issue -- I am essentially a newbie. Any contribution is part of my education so hijack away.

[MooseMan]

I think it's just a personal thing and there's no real right/wrong way

My way is to keep heads, tails and anything that doesn't make the cut from pot runs and add them to either the next spirit run of the same product, or I have occasionally run them through my mini still indoors when I've had spare time.

Reflux heads I'm building a stock of until I have enough for a full boiler, then I'll raise the pH to 9+ and run to recover what I can as neutral. The feints from that run will go in the cleaning fluid bottles.
Reflux tails stay in the backset and go to waste.

Curious why you go up to pH 9 , do you do this for a flavor change?
Tōtō

Base Ester Hydrolysis is what I'm aiming for.
I still don't have enough built up to do a full reflux feints run so I haven't actually tried it yet, but I've done plenty of research and had a PM conversation with a member who does it to good effect.

At the risk of being boring, this is a good short read on it.

https://chem.libretexts.org/Courses/Eas ... _of_Esters

If you going for neutral spirits what do the esters do for you?
Mr. Beer I didn't mean to hijack your thread, continue on
Tōtō

Yeah, sorry Mr_Beer.

Toto the ester hydrolysis reaction frees alcohol that is bound to an ester (Imagine heads as good clean alcohol, but with dirt stuck to it. The high pH hydrolysis makes the dirt fall off and it can't stick back on) so that alcohol then becomes cleaner and allows a greater amount of neutral to be collected by a reflux still.
The esters are left behind in the still as salts.