Angel yellow Label Yeast

[SGB]

I know a lot of stuff already in other threads on using g angel yeast but I thought maybe it needed it own dedicated thread. I've done lots of rice, wines, sake and spirits such as Baiju Ect. Just wondering about other grains or beers or the claim by the Angel yeast site that the yellow Lable makes koji rice. I'm making some sake now and have a packet of koji. I've also made some excellent rice wine that really came through after 6months aging in the fridge. Anybody know if this koji claim is real?

[SGB]

I there is a yellow label thread mods can delete this thread or carry on

[Saltbush Bill]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76531

[SGB]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76531

Yes I've seen that and very It is very informative.. It's just that if one is looking specifically for information specific on this yeast it's in a mash thread where one must go through an entire thread and may or may not find the answer.. . However I had forgotten there is the "yellow label thread "when I posted thanks

[CoogeeBoy]

So I just checked my rice ferment using Angel Yellow Yeast.
Of course, it comes back to me not having the right equipment, i.e. a refractometer, but I checked the pH, did what I thought would be a test for the alcohol content of the low wine using an alcometer and lo and behold, no alcohol (duh...I wasn't thinking, again), so I re-pitched some more Angel yeast etc etc and gave it a big stir when I noticed....
the rice had been well and truly eaten by the yeast and there was little more than hearts of the rice left which were soft and crumbly.
This is a key piece of information that I hadn't picked up on before. Yes I saw the message about waiting for all signs of fermenting to stop but this surely is a pretty good indicator as to how your ferment is going. Unlike TTFV where there is a fair amount of trub, there appears to be buggar all* in this rice wine ferment.

I wonder if that is a better measure of if your rice ferment is completed, or more specifically, does all the rice get digested by the yeast?

Intriguing for me is the fact that higher grades of sake use heavily milled rice and use only the hearts.

* "buggar all" being the technical term used by the technically proficient and educationally elite for "very little".

[NZChris]

.... but I checked the pH, did what I thought would be a test for the alcohol content of the low wine using an alcometer and lo and behold, no alcohol....

What is the SG, temperature corrected?

[CoogeeBoy]

The SG was 1. I didn't mash or gelatinise the rice, I poured boiling water on it and measured the SG when I had brought the volume up to 25l.

[CoogeeBoy]

.... but I checked the pH, did what I thought would be a test for the alcohol content of the low wine using an alcometer and lo and behold, no alcohol....

What is the SG, temperature corrected?

I did ask this on another thread a week or so ago. I would appreciate your insights.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=82867&start=30#p7705580

[Saltbush Bill]

did what I thought would be a test for the alcohol content of the low wine using an alcometer and lo and behold, no alcohol (duh...I wasn't thinking, again), so I re-pitched some more Angel yeast etc etc and gave it a big stir when I noticed....

You tried to measure the alcohol content of the wash ? or low wines ......what are you saying ?
An alcometer wont give an accurate reading in wash if that is what you were trying to do.

"buggar all" being the technical term used by the technically proficient and educationally elite for "very little".

SFA being the technical term for even less than "Bugger all"

[CoogeeBoy]

did what I thought would be a test for the alcohol content of the low wine using an alcometer and lo and behold, no alcohol (duh...I wasn't thinking, again), so I re-pitched some more Angel yeast etc etc and gave it a big stir when I noticed....

You tried to measure the alcohol content of the wash ? or low wines ......what are you saying ?
An alcometer wont give an accurate reading in wash if that is what you were trying to do.

"buggar all" being the technical term used by the technically proficient and educationally elite for "very little".

SFA being the technical term for even less than "Bugger all"

Yes, I made a mistaaa....., a mistaaaaa....
I did something silly and tried to use the alcometer to measure alcohol content on lowwines, then realised after the fact what I had done was wro....., wronn......

[NZChris]

.... but I checked the pH, did what I thought would be a test for the alcohol content of the low wine using an alcometer and lo and behold, no alcohol....

What is the SG, temperature corrected?

I did ask this on another thread a week or so ago. I would appreciate your insights.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=82867&start=30#p7705580

When mine have gone dead, the SG has always been below 1.000 and I've been able to look up the ABV using the TTB tables. The initial boiling points agreed closely with the TTB table. You can test for ABV by measuring the boiling point of a sample, then looking up the ABV for that boiling point.

[rubberduck71]

when I noticed....
the rice had been well and truly eaten by the yeast and there was little more than hearts of the rice left which were soft and crumbly.

I noticed this too!

I've done both a rice whiskey & made a neutral with the angel yeast. Both are tasty.

I may be misunderstanding your comments above, but there is no SG measurement to be had??? This stuff does a parallel fermentation, so as soon as the enzymes convert the starches to sugars, they're consumed by the yeast.

It feels surreal that the only way you get confirmation that alcohol was made during fermentation is by seeing the alcometer during distillation. I have consumed some of the ferment, but depending on the rice you start with, some rice wine flavors are more palatable than others. I've read that short grain rice has the best starch/weight, but it can be difficult to find. My local Costco used to stock Kokuho Rose medium grain, and that by far was the tastiest rice wine, after letting it clarify over time.

YMMV

[CoogeeBoy]

when I noticed....
the rice had been well and truly eaten by the yeast and there was little more than hearts of the rice left which were soft and crumbly.

I may be misunderstanding your comments above, but there is no SG measurement to be had??? This stuff does a parallel fermentation, so as soon as the enzymes convert the starches to sugars, they're consumed by the yeast.

YMMV

There are no SG measurements to be had as, as you say, the fermentation happens in parrallel to the enzymes converting the starches to sugar so there are no sugars in the wash.

[NZChris]

What is keeping the SG high?

Have you done a starch test?
Have you temperature corrected?
Have you checked your hydrometer in water?
What is the boiling point of the wash? What is the ABV according to the boiling point?

What product are you making?
Does that product normally go dead at, or above, 1.000?

Refractive index tells you nothing except for change. No change means the ferment is finished or stalled.
My alcohol refractometer is probably the same cheap junk bought by many home distillers. It works for watching the progress of this yeast because you are only looking for change, not for an accurate measurement of anything.

I have a pair of very large and accurate hydrometers, one for over 1.000 and one for under. They are what I use when keeping an eye on what this yeast is doing, bought online, and not expensive considering how useful they are.

[CoogeeBoy]

What is keeping the SG high?

Have you done a starch test?
Have you temperature corrected?
Have you checked your hydrometer in water?
What is the boiling point of the wash? What is the ABV according to the boiling point?

What product are you making?
Does that product normally go dead at, or above, 1.000?

Refractive index tells you nothing except for change. No change means the ferment is finished or stalled.
My alcohol refractometer is probably the same cheap junk bought by many home distillers. It works for watching the progress of this yeast because you are only looking for change, not for an accurate measurement of anything.

I have a pair of very large and accurate hydrometers, one for over 1.000 and one for under. They are what I use when keeping an eye on what this yeast is doing, bought online, and not expensive considering how useful they are.

Well that is my homework for this week!
Thank you for the input, I will chase those answers down, most likely next weekend, will be out of town most of this week.

[CoogeeBoy]

.... but I checked the pH, did what I thought would be a test for the alcohol content of the low wine using an alcometer and lo and behold, no alcohol....

What is the SG, temperature corrected?

I did ask this on another thread a week or so ago. I would appreciate your insights.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=82867&start=30#p7705580

When mine have gone dead, the SG has always been below 1.000 and I've been able to look up the ABV using the TTB tables. The initial boiling points agreed closely with the TTB table. You can test for ABV by measuring the boiling point of a sample, then looking up the ABV for that boiling point.

I give up. I tested the SG this morning, its gone up (from 1) and did a starch test, definitely starch in it.

[Saltbush Bill]

Is it still showing signs of fermentation Coog ?

[Poitín Sue]

I'm probably making silly mistakes and asking silly questions, and asking the silly questions in the wrong place....so apologies while I get my head round forum etiquette.
Anyhow, I took it upon myself to ferment 6 bags of fine rye flour using yly. Despite the low (24°) it took off foamed, made a mess etc. I probably lost a bag of rye flour, so I stirred in another. It's bubbling away happily now, even though I'm struggling to get the temperature to within the recommended range.
The real question I wanted to ask is, have I made a mistake with the flour. Will it clarify or settle to the point where I won't be scorching the pot?

[Oystercracker123]

Yellow label acts similar to koji but is not the same thing. Just google what koji is…typically aspergillis oryzae. The second ingredient in yellow label is what acts similarly. It’s listed as rhyzobus. It’s likely rhyzobus oryzae, but that’s unclear. Do some googling on mucormycosis. 70 percent of the cases are caused by rhyzobus oryzae. While the FDA says that rhyzobus oryzae is GRAS (generally recognized as safe), for the people that it isn’t safe for it has a fair likelihood of being fatal. I’m not trying to ruffle any feathers, or cause a stir, I’m just saying that with the safety focused view of this forum people should be working with the stuff with their eyes open.

[jonnys_spirit]

I generally agree about yellow label. In contrast to YLAY you can culture and use various Koji strains for conversion AND use the yeast you like for alcoholic fermentation if you want to get more granular with your product. Similar to recycling some backset and recycling feints, you can also recycle a portion of the spent grain and do koji ferments between batches to further develop the profile. If you're into culinary activities I'd recommend taking a deeper dive into the various Koji inspired products you can make. I've got a spicy Koji/Hot-Pepper/Garlic/Honey/Grain/Rice/Soybean/Shrimp ferment that's like 3-4 years into the ferment. Several jars. Great for sauces/marinades/bbq many things

Food for thought

Cheers,
jonny

[Steve Broady]

you can culture and use various Koji strains

Have you got any advice on doing that, for someone who’s comfortable keeping yeast and lactobacteria going already? Either your own tips or techniques, or maybe a pointer towards a decent tutorial website, video, or other resource?

[MooseMan]

you can culture and use various Koji strains

Have you got any advice on doing that, for someone who’s comfortable keeping yeast and lactobacteria going already? Either your own tips or techniques, or maybe a pointer towards a decent tutorial website, video, or other resource?

I too would be interested in this

[jonnys_spirit]

you can culture and use various Koji strains

Have you got any advice on doing that, for someone who’s comfortable keeping yeast and lactobacteria going already? Either your own tips or techniques, or maybe a pointer towards a decent tutorial website, video, or other resource?

I too would be interested in this

I found various red/white/yellow koji spores on Amazon and a few more "boutiquey" vendors around the web. I use a small Broad & Taylor bread proofer and stainless food service trays and flour sack towels with holes in the bottom to set the temp.. You can use rice, grains, soy beans to as the substrate to grow the koji on the substrate... It takes a couple days and you can tailor the temps and spores within a range to have the koji produce more amylase or protease depending on whether you're doing a saccharification conversion or protein/amino style ferment... I'd start with rice and using that as you would an amylase enzyme for a rice wine, sake, amizake, or other grains. I believe 150*F will denature it and the pitch temp into your mash is much lower... I've used it for making rice wine/sake and some other food items and want to use it in an AG bourbon style and probably some more traditional far east spirits using rice and other grains...

If you google growing Koji for Sake you'll find a bunch of info or just Koji for a wider net

Cheers,
jonny

[MooseMan]

Thanks Jonny.

Moose

[jonnys_spirit]

Thanks Johnny.

Moose

No prob!

I started getting into making Sake and then other Koji based ferments so my wife got me this book which opened a lot of options for other kinds of uses:
https://www.amazon.com/Koji-Alchemy-Red ... 60358868X
I recommend it as a great reference but there's tons of info out there..

Cheers,
jonny

[MooseMan]

That looks like something I'd enjoy reading and learning about, cheers for the link.
I'll see if I can pick it up cheaper in the UK.

And apologies, I just noticed that my phone auto correct has been misspelling your name.

[jonnys_spirit]

And apologies, I just noticed that my phone auto correct has been misspelling your name.

No worries it's not my real name anyway but it's close enough lol Friends and family call me Johann because I was born in Germany and grew up there in the 80's (military family)..

Cheers,
jonny

[Poitín Sue]

I'll tell you what though, at 24° c it smelled like a yeasty bread mix. Now that I'm hitting the target temperatures it smells like fruit candy.
(Perhaps not as technical a post as the last several)

[AlZilla]

It’s listed as rhyzobus. It’s likely rhyzobus oryzae, but that’s unclear. Do some googling on mucormycosis.

I appreciate the info here. I did some reading about mucormycosis. It looks extremely rare but quite an aggressive, disfiguring and deadly disease. I have a vulnerable individual in my house and while I understand rhyzobus oryzae is in the environment anyway, I'll be getting YLAY out of my house. No need concentrating it right under our noses.

Thanks for the heads up!

[Bee]

I ground some corn up with a 3/32" clearance on the grinding plates, mashed it, and I calculate (https://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/ ) that the mash efficiency was 100%. The calculated gravity is 1.080 from 2.2lbs grain/1 gallon water.