First Attempt at Pot Still Vodka with Whiskey Feints

[Avalir]

So with life happening and needing to hang up the hobby for at least a few years, decided to take all my feints from my toasted bourbon [AG - toasted corn, toated wheat, toasted oats, vienna malt] and a quickly slapped together wash I made with my leftover wheat, oats, and a few pounds of dextrose I had laying around that I haven't touched since my first couple months in this hobby; I've already stripped the wash.

I'm sitting at about 9 gallons of ~35% distillate that I'll be reprocessing (about 6 gallons of my whiskey feints and 3 gallons of stripped scraps wash). Going to be pot distilling since my long column is blocked by the ceiling after upgrading my boiler. Never attempted a pot distilled neutral/vodka before, so I'm curious how it'll turn out.

Right now I'm planning to probably dilute boiler charge to closer to 30% and toss in a couple tablespoons of washing soda for the first spirit run. Plan to run a second spirit run afterwards too with the boiler charge somewhere between 30-35% but without any washing soda (in the past I've used washing soda in consecutive runs and I'm convinced if it does anything in subsequent runs, it's negligible - think probably because it already hit it's equilibrium).

We'll see if I feel additional runs to be necessary, but I'm hoping two low and slow spirit runs making very liberal cuts will do the trick (any detectable heads and tails by either smell or taste in either run will be tossed). Half the purpose of this is to have one last blast with the still before hanging it up and also to use up everything I had lying around and filling a whole room so the wife can start using that room for storage. If it needs more runs, so be it - rushing and shortcuts don't equate to quality. My goal is to minimally be better than Tito's or Kettle One; I feel like that shouldn't be too hard, but I've got little experience with vodka and have been wrong before. Also not a big vodka fan, so likely a large portion will be made into kahlua and/or extracts anyways.

Will begin the first spirit run in the morning. I welcome any and all pointers y'all would like to offer, otherwise wish me luck. I'll let y'all know how it goes.

[jonnys_spirit]

I think this will make a flavorful pot stilled whiskey based spirit, not so much a vodka. You’ll likely need more theoretical or actual plates to get close to a flavorless vodka spirit. I bet it will be good too cut wide and put up on charred oak for a good rest. I’d also save a feints cut and put that on oak for when you’re set up again if it’s a possibility.

Save a middle hearts jar for clean white and you’ll might appreciate that too

Cheers,
jonny

[Avalir]

I'm hopeful the washing soda may remedy the abundance of flavor, but after the first run I'm sure I'll get a sense of what I can reasonably expect. If flavor is still prominent, I'm not apposed to just calling it whiskey. White dog based vanilla extract is something I've been curious of - now I'm curious of how a white dog kahlua might be (believe Tia Maria, I think, and other more traditional kahlua-type liquors are rum based rather than neutral, so can't fathom why that wouldn't be good). But bottom line, the wife is requesting vodka for them, so I'll aim to please first and go from there.

[Dougmatt]

Like Jonny, I think you will get a lot of flavor…. Especially if there’s a lot of tails in the feints.

Personally I would water it down to the largest charge your boiler will take, strip it again, cut the strip off around 40% off the spout to get rid of a good bit of the tails flavors, then water that down to about 25-30 Abv and spirit run it. Your grain flavors are going to start coming in about middle of the hearts so I would collect everything in fractions and then you can probably get a couple of fairly light in flavor jars you could call “vodka” for the missus, before the grain comes in (probably still more flavor than you would like, but not a white dog whiskey flavor level). You can either then blend what’s left or water it down and run it again for another jar or 2 of clean.

Or of course you can spirit run it like you plan, and if it isn’t clean enough, water it down and throw it back in.

Regardless, let us know what you do and how it comes out.

[jonnys_spirit]

+1 on DougMatt’s suggestion. Water/Strip/water/strip rinse and repeat as many times as you can suffer through it. Think a vodka column is 20 plates. Water/strip 20 times for comparative equivalence.

Water is powerful.. look what it did to the Grand Canyon. Just took a minute and a lot of water.

Cheers,
-jonny

[Avalir]

Not a bad thought. I had been thinking about potentially adding a couple stripping runs in since I've read on people getting good results around the 5th distillation in a pot (and of course at the liquor store there's Tito's which is a six time pot distilled corn vodka). Still think I'll keep the proof high for the first run with the washing soda since I'm well versed in making cuts with flavored likker (I'm sure making cuts wouldn't be much different with a lighter/more neutral flavor, but approaching it in a more familiar profile is a comforting thought). Pulling tails (and flavor) with more diluted subsequent stripping runs is definitely something I can get down with. 2-3+ subsequent strips before the final spirit run sounds like good plan.

[Avalir]

And I guess I will add majority of the feints is tails since I'll usually dub the first 2/3 or so of the heads not worth the time or effort in saving/trying to salvage.

[jonnys_spirit]

Pot stills seem simple at first glance compared to “fancy pants” columns and trays. They do, however, work (exceptionally well) and what you put into it, decide to take out, and how you pilot the machine makes all the difference. I find that there is quite a depth of nuance the more I run a pot still protocol which I feel is very fluid.

That said, vodka from a pot still is a fairly rough ride. Time and effort consuming but probably well worth it.

Tito’s: I would take their statements with a grain of salt. Six times pot stilled can be smoke and mirrors if sourcing NGS and there is no TTB regulation that deems those statements to be accurate to what one may believe.

Cheers,
j

[MooseMan]

From a purely equipment point of view Avalir, you said you can't setup your column due to height restriction, but can you make your riser taller?
Can you pack some of it with mesh? Can you run a fan pointing at the top of the riser? Wet rags? Do you have a copper coil (Worth chiller?) that you could put around the riser and run water through before it goes to the PC?
Basically anything that could induce a little reflux will make your life easier.

[Avalir]

Unable to make it taller, just have more or less an elbow of a riser that leads to a liebig, if I reversed how the elbow attached, I'd lose a couple inches. I was planning to pack it with about twice as much copper mesh that I'd normally pack running whiskey for whatever assistance it'll offer (should still allow sufficient vapor flow). Have a 16 gallon boiler, so I also figure the extra head space may lend to some quasi reflux action too. I do have rags and water, so wrapping it is a nice thought - I'll give it a go, can't hurt.

I also have a 10 foot quarter inch copper tube I could rig into a chiller to wrap the riser, but winding it sounds like a great effort for something I probably won't get snug enough to be worth the time investment. I may try to get it started and see how I feel about it after a few minutes.

[Avalir]

Tito’s: I would take their statements with a grain of salt. Six times pot stilled can be smoke and mirrors if sourcing NGS and there is no TTB regulation that deems those statements to be accurate to what one may believe.

Definitely do. Everytime I look into regulations from any government agencies, I'm appalled by the little things they wrap in red tape while ignoring things you'd think they'd care about. That's politics for you though and why industries have lobbyists I suppose.

[MooseMan]

Unable to make it taller, just have more or less an elbow of a riser that leads to a liebig, if I reversed how the elbow attached, I'd lose a couple inches. I was planning to pack it with about twice as much copper mesh that I'd normally pack running whiskey for whatever assistance it'll offer (should still allow sufficient vapor flow). Have a 16 gallon boiler, so I also figure the extra head space may lend to some quasi reflux action too. I do have rags and water, so wrapping it is a nice thought - I'll give it a go, can't hurt.

I also have a 10 foot quarter inch copper tube I could rig into a chiller to wrap the riser, but winding it sounds like a great effort for something I probably won't get snug enough to be worth the time investment. I may try to get it started and see how I feel about it after a few minutes.

Wet rags, on the boiler top and riser, swapped out through the run, even better with a fan blowing on them, will definitely get you a little "quasi reflux" as you say.
And if you bend that copper to whatever shape you can in contact with the riser, and it's not really snug enough, more wet rags will transfer the heat between the surfaces and again, airflow will help big time.

[Avalir]

Got the burner going. Copper tube proved to be a pain - definitely something I wouldn't mind investing a couple hours into once it comes out of storage (or I'll just get a new column to work with/who knows if I'll have a height restriction at that time). Also couldn't find the washing soda - think the wife moved or used it (was just at the store for a new fire extinguisher, so wish I knew); so I'll forgo it this time and will probably pick some up for the follow-up strip run. Probably have 40 more minutes until it's up to temp and dripping - just added about a gallon of water to the 35% charge, so it's probably down to ~32%.

[Avalir]

Had a fun thought, the top/lid to my boiler looked like a fine place to pour a little cooling water, so I did.

[MooseMan]

Yeah why not! Once it gets hot, wick it up with a rag and pour some more.

I'd definitely be draping wet rags around the neck of that milk can too, and setting up a fan to blow at it. I think that will really help to scavenge heat from the vapour hitting the upper walls and condense it back down.

[Avalir]

Sadly the wife takes the portable fan to work in the summer, so don't have one handy. Trying to locate a large enough rag or an undershirt I can wrap around the top - don't want to hear from the wife about using a good towel when she gets home mid run.

[Avalir]

Found where the wife hides the 'dog towels' so we're in business now. Getting the photo file size small enough to attach was the tricky part.

[jonnys_spirit]

'dog towels'.

That's an ideal solution for some quality white dog lol

Cheers,
jonny

[Avalir]

'dog towels'.

That's an ideal solution for some quality white dog lol

Cheers,
jonny

You know it!

Can hear the boil and the thermometer at the still head is bobbing around rather than shooting up. Just dialed the heat back before I get more than I bargained for. But looks like this 'quasi reflux' is doing it's job.

I appreciate all the input and company, everyone!

[Avalir]

Watching this improvised reflux aide in action has got me brainstorming about how it could be improved, so thought I'd think out loud, so to speak, so I can backtrack to it or if anyone who reads it may want to try to build upon it.

But in a nutshell, I'm thinking wrap the riser in a better suited wicking material that will extend down to the lid and pull from that cooling reservoir (never would've thought reservoir to be a viable application of the lid before today). Then of course put in the time to get some copper tubing snuggly secured over the wicking material to act as a chiller. I'm not well versed in thermodynamics, but I feel the steam coming off the reservoir could potentially be recycled/utilized to further aide the external reflux system.

Edit: A quick search lead me to nylon as a top contender as a wicking material (temperature range goes safely beyond what would be necessary in this hobby: -70F - 250F).

Another Edit: Could also fashion a sort of apron to also wick from the reservoir in place of wrapping the top of the boiler with a wet towel.

[jonnys_spirit]

You really need some packing in the column below the reflux to get multiple re-distillations. The packed column doesn't need to be a 20:1 height:diameter ratio to perform re-distillations but that's the recommended ration for achieving neutral with adequate HETP's.

You could put the end of the towel in a bucket of water so that it continues to wick water up as it evaporates. Perhaps do a shorter scrubbie or other material packed column if you have height limitations... 12" of packed would get you closer than zero.

Cheers,
jonny

[Avalir]

Been managing the lid reservoir with an occasional ice cube to try to maintain the still head temp at or under 82C (I use C for distilling and F for everything else - just the way I learned, so sorry). Been keeping the drip rate low and defined - took an hour to pull the first pint of foreshots/early heads. Out of curiosity, took my alcometer to it and clocked in at 170 proof; can't say I've ever taken a proof reading of my early distillate before, but sounds good to me for a pot still, especially considering there should be minimal heads present in the boiler.

[Avalir]

You really need some packing in the column below the reflux to get multiple re-distillations. The packed column doesn't need to be a 20:1 height:diameter ratio to perform re-distillations but that's the recommended ration for achieving neutral with adequate HETP's.

You could put the end of the towel in a bucket of water so that it continues to wick water up as it evaporates. Perhaps do a shorter scrubbie or other material packed column if you have height limitations... 12" of packed would get you closer than zero.

Cheers,
jonny

Been pouring water on the towel periodically to keep it damp, but definitely not a bad idea for when I set up my subsequent runs. Could probably also rig up a way to pin a cluster of packing to the top of the boiler too - thermometer in the column is a easy and convenient makeshift pin, so could probably have a nice loose basketball sized wad dangle into the top of the boiler.

[MooseMan]

Watching this improvised reflux aide in action has got me brainstorming about how it could be improved, so thought I'd think out loud, so to speak, so I can backtrack to it or if anyone who reads it may want to try to build upon it.

But in a nutshell, I'm thinking wrap the riser in a better suited wicking material that will extend down to the lid and pull from that cooling reservoir (never would've thought reservoir to be a viable application of the lid before today). Then of course put in the time to get some copper tubing snuggly secured over the wicking material to act as a chiller. I'm not well versed in thermodynamics, but I feel the steam coming off the reservoir could potentially be recycled/utilized to further aide the external reflux system.

Edit: A quick search lead me to nylon as a top contender as a wicking material (temperature range goes safely beyond what would be necessary in this hobby: -70F - 250F).

Another Edit: Could also fashion a sort of apron to also wick from the reservoir in place of wrapping the top of the boiler with a wet towel.

Glad that I've got your creative juices flowing my friend.
There are definitely lots more things you can do to make reflux happen in your setup. I really like Jonny's idea of a bucket with the end of a cloth trailing in. Super simple but will definitely work.
Yet again, airflow over the cloth would really amplify the effect.

For example I use aluminium heatsinks (Ali has really high thermal conductivity) from old computers to cool the PC on my little gin still with no water at all, and that is very effective, if you happen to have any lying around you could stick on the boiler lid! Lol

It's all about surface area

One of the things I love about this forum is just this, someone posts an issue/problem/challenge and everyone just piles in with suggestions and help until something sticks.

Very much looking forward to reading how this product comes out now.

[Avalir]

As am I. Love thinking about what solutions for various things can be rigged up with household supplies while manning the still to compensate for lack of professional setup funds. Just a bit saddening to think even if I tossed a protype together, there won't be much of an opportunity to test drive it before I box up my equipment. Glad the concept is at least dreamt up for me to ponder over the next couple years.

About a quart in now and was straining to sniff out any heads, so took a few drops on a spoon; just as I thought, we're transitioning into hearts now - think another half pint should get me there. Glad I didn't have a large mess of heads to worry about in this.

[MooseMan]

The fact that you're running so slow combined with the re condensing from all the little tweaks, has probably compressed the heads too.
Bonus!

[Avalir]

Heck yeah. Figured I may as well run as slow as possible because personally, not sure about the rest of y'all, the only complaint I have with pot distilling is the smearing of those damn heads. Hard to believe I hit hearts in a pot without the still head exceeding 83C - these halfass mods far surpassed my expectations.

Think I'll take another pint or two in fractions slowly for good measure then crank up the heat to strip out the rest; the wife changed her mind and wants the kitchen this evening, so I gotta wrap it up and clear out.
So long as I pull them heads off today, I'm happy.

[Avalir]

Just unwrapped the rig and switched to stripping. Ran half a gallon at a rate of about 1 pint per hour. The still head happily stayed parked in the 81-83C range for the entirety of that half gallon; once I removed all the mods, it shot up to 86C within a minute or two. But tasting (sampling 2-3 drops on a spoon at a time - just let it evaporate on the tongue, then rinse and chase with some water) the flavor has been consistent the past pint or so; just a sharpness (not headsy, but I figure just what comes with sampling what's probably 160+ proof), subtle sweetness, no concerning sensations on the tongue. Think we can call this a huge success.

I appreciate all the advise and input!
I'll be sure to give an update once I move into my subsequent runs.

[Avalir]

So I did end up getting some mild flavor and aroma coming over after I switched over to stripping around when the still head hit 93C. Really didn't pick up all too much from there (tails came off about as fragrant as my whiskey hearts), which got me thinking why that may be - also recalled my feints carboy not having that distinct potent tails aroma when I filled my boiler. And it's now dawning on me that I forgot something I did about 6 months back, before I ever did the scraps ferment and strip: I had actually let the feints sit on activated carbon and air out for about a month, then stripped them (this is when I learned how much of a pain and mess activated carbon was and lost interest in utilizing it again). On the bright side, seems to have done it's job pretty well (don't believe I took any tastes on the strip because, you know, it was a strip). And with the scraps run being primarily wheat and fermented off the grain (had already intended for it to go towards a neutral/vodka), it was already on course for a light profile.

That all being said - great news, I'm ahead of schedule and probably won't need excessive extra stripping runs. Going to strip once with washing soda, once with just water, then I'll see if I feel it's ready for a spirit run; may just do the spirit run at that time regardless and if I'm not fully satisfied, start stripping again. The father-in-law's preferred spirit is vodka and his go to is Kettle One (he feels it's the best you can buy without spending an absorbent amount); he would never try my bourbon because he doesn't like bourbon, and knowing him if he doesn't like what I finally get him to sample, he'll never drink my likker again. So aiming for something I can have no reservations in presenting him before I hang the still up too (probably won't tell him it's made from everything that wasn't good enough to be whiskey... until after he tries it).

[Swedish Pride]

Can you get your hands on activated carbon?
Sounds like it would be ideal for your needs