Hello all o/, This is my first post other than the welcome center, I thought since there was little covering this subject I could contribute a little bit myself , So I am researching yeast and nutrients at the moment as I need to "read up" to be successful. As I was deep into the research of yeist nutrient, and other activity's of yeast I came across a study publication that talked about the effects of pollen on Saccharomyces Cerevisiae during fermentation. As a beekeeper myself I was instantly intrigued as I often use dead brewers yeast to make as a starter bee bread for my brood boxes. The bee's love this stuff! Anyway, I shouldn't post links to citation as this is my first post and link are a no no. In conclusion, the bee pollen somehow gives the yeast the ability to survive higher ABV. Has anyone ever tried using bee pollen in their mead or wash? I plan to use it in my next wash and pitch it with the yeast and nutrient, I will keep you all posted.
my current wash is 15gl's water, 15 lb's cracked boiled corn, 20lb's sugar. Yeast will be added directly to wash as it cools, 3tbsp bakers yeast, 1 pinch epsom salt, 3 tbsp of pollen and dead yeast flakes blended together.
Cracked boiled corn sounds like a recipe for a burn on disaster. You should probably use enzymes to convert the gelatinized starch. Angel yellow label would work.
NZChris wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 1:29 pm
Cracked boiled corn sounds like a recipe for a burn on disaster. You should probably use enzymes to convert the gelatinized starch. Angel yellow label would work.
thank you, the corn was tossed in boiling water and turned off immediately, I doubt very seriously it has been starched or gelatinous, although this may be a possibility, would it be too much to add the enzymes after 20lb's of sugar? I wouldnt want the yeast to stress. Thank you for your help <3.
my goal with tossing the corn into boiling water was to help the flavor profile, not make it ready for for conversion by enzymes, I hope I didnt ruin my wash .
Tōtōchtin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 11:31 am
If it's a reputable study post it. The moderators can delete it if its incorrect or insurrectional material.
Beginners are advised to use the tried and true recipes before inventing their own. If something goes wrong with a poorly designed own recipe, solutions might be hard to find.
dkslopoke wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 1:38 pm
the corn was tossed in boiling water and turned off immediately, I doubt very seriously it has been starched or gelatinous, although this may be a possibility, would it be too much to add the enzymes after 20lb's of sugar? I wouldnt want the yeast to stress. Thank you for your help <3.
I'm thinking, heating the corn to sterilize it wasn't necessary and will contribute to some starch.
Adding high temp enzyme isn't going to do much without the proper amount of heat.
Don't worry, take a shot and wait for it to finish.
Update, after pitching yeast at 105 F i added dead yeast and will not pitch pollen until tomorrow. I was amazed after 1 minute of pitching yeast it looked like a volcano erupting in my wash. I did not aerate the wash at all because i want to starve the yeast of all oxygen to keep a clean flavor, I am using a solid ss still with chore boy pads inserted into column. after 3 hours in ferment the airlock already smells like a nice alcohol, I am hesitant to pop the cap and add the pollen tomorrow as it is doing so well, should I wait maybe 3 days to add pollen?
NZChris wrote: ↑Sat Aug 17, 2024 11:06 am
Increasing ABV by using high doses of nutrients is great for making fuel, but the stress on the yeast doesn’t make for good flavored liquor.
Bee pollen cannot be classified as a nutrient as the cell walls stay intact and are not broken during any stage of fermentation, Therefore the effect it has on yeast is known, but the why is a mystery. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... e7iM6QT4be
Keeping temp between 85 and 105 proves crucial. This bread yeast loves farting at 95 degrees. Added bee pollen at hour 20, having trouble keeping airlock wet,
dkslopoke wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2024 3:52 pm
Keeping temp between 85 and 105 proves crucial. This bread yeast loves farting at 95 degrees. Added bee pollen at hour 20, having trouble keeping airlock wet,
Just my 2cents worth and I'm often wrong.
80-86'f is the sweet spot for baker's yeast.
Hotter and faster than that and the Co2 builds up and the pH is more likely to crash.
dkslopoke wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 9:54 am. I did not aerate the wash at all because i want to starve the yeast of all oxygen to keep a clean flavor, I am using a solid ss still with chore boy pads
This is surprising. It is normal to aerate the wash before pitching . The yeast needs oxygen in the initial breeding stage to build up a big enough colony ti get the job done .
dkslopoke wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 9:54 am. I did not aerate the wash at all because i want to starve the yeast of all oxygen to keep a clean flavor, I am using a solid ss still with chore boy pads
This is surprising. It is normal to aerate the wash before pitching . The yeast needs oxygen in the initial breeding stage to build up a big enough colony ti get the job done .
I agree Oxygen after that is nit needed .
Free Oxygen at the start of a ferment is crucial to yeast. Starving them at the beginning will do more harm than good.
Just the act of adding cold water to a vessel though, can provide enough in the right conditions, without having to go mad with aeration, so you are probably getting away with it due to that.
I actually read a study way back in the early 2000's, where olive oil was added to ferments for the yeast to use as an oxygen substitute, no idea how the hell that works! Something to do with fatty acids or something?
dkslopoke wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 9:54 am
I did not aerate the wash at all because i want to starve the yeast of all oxygen to keep a clean flavor
Where did this idea come from ? something you read somewhere? Something you saw on Youtube ? Or some other source, can you provide a link to this information ?
dkslopoke wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 9:54 am
I did not aerate the wash at all because i want to starve the yeast of all oxygen to keep a clean flavor
Ill pile on, yeast reproduce under aerobic conditions and create alcohol/co2 under anaerobic conditions.
Pitching your yeast and not having enough O2 for the yeast to reproduce will stress them and they will throw all kinds of esters... farthest thing from a "clean" fermentation.
I haven't read the study because I can't of how it's even remotely true. If you're going to continue these experiments, I'd highly recommend you read up on yeast. Especially the cellular makeup, glycolytic pathway, and the Ehrlich pathway, learn about how esters are created in yeast so you understand the what and why things are happening.
There are two types of people in this world.
1. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete information.
Thank you very much for the temp advice, I dropped it down to 85. Now to the point of oxygen needed to breed the yeast colony i have a contrary viewpoint, I did not add any water, I boiled all 15 gallons and waited to cool, now the water will have some oxygen in it from start. My viewpoint is that I dont want to overbloom the yeast colony as this will most certainly lead to a faster ferment and will lead to a lower ABV due to the mass die off, I want the yeast to take it's time. day 3 proves to still be a constant stream of farts from airlock.
SW_Shiner wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 1:41 pm
How does a faster ferment lose abv?
My mindset of over blooming yeast will surely evacuate the necessary proteins/nutrients for a strong yeast therefore leading to an early die off which inherently will be a lower ABV, this may or may not happen but in response to your question it is a likely scenario, I may be mistaken.
dkslopoke wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2024 12:30 pm
My mindset of over blooming yeast will surely evacuate the necessary proteins/nutrients for a strong yeast therefore leading to an early die off which inherently will be a lower ABV, this may or may not happen but in response to your question it is a likely scenario, I may be mistaken.
My mindset, yeast is bull frog tough.
"Over blooming" isn't a problem because it only reproduces until it has the right population.
By the time that point is reached, it gets serious about converting simple sugars into alcohol and Co2.
I'm a firm believer in initially aerating a fermentation and can't see any advantage to starving yeast of oxygen during the time it needs to be multiplying.
shadylane wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2024 3:36 pm
.. can't see any advantage to starving yeast of oxygen during the time it needs to be multiplying.
Actually, I can .. sort of. I remember reading here a while ago about a study showing that yeast which was in a mildly saline solution showed higher alcohol tolerance than otherwise. I think the logic was basically that only the toughest yeast could survive the abuse, which then went on to multiply and make alcohol. So maybe the logic here could be the same. Stressing the yeast early on is probably killing off or stunting most of them, letting the toughest of the tough dominate.
Of course, that says absolutely nothing about the flavors they’re going to produce. But I get the impression that the OP is primarily interested in making the most alcohol possible, either for fuel or just crappy hooch. In either case, the nuances of flavor and quality over quantity seem to be unimportant.
Learn from the past, live in the present, change the future.
shadylane wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2024 3:36 pm
.. can't see any advantage to starving yeast of oxygen during the time it needs to be multiplying.
Actually, I can .. sort of. I remember reading here a while ago about a study showing that yeast which was in a mildly saline solution showed higher alcohol tolerance than otherwise. I think the logic was basically that only the toughest yeast could survive the abuse, which then went on to multiply and make alcohol. So maybe the logic here could be the same. Stressing the yeast early on is probably killing off or stunting most of them, letting the toughest of the tough dominate.
Of course, that says absolutely nothing about the flavors they’re going to produce. But I get the impression that the OP is primarily interested in making the most alcohol possible, either for fuel or just crappy hooch. In either case, the nuances of flavor and quality over quantity seem to be unimportant.
Hello, My intent was to make a clean alcohol, neutral flavor, after heads my hearts were %70, tastes great down to %50, at that point I stopped because the temp required to continue would have not been desirable spirits. TBH I actually got a very small amount of alcohol. 1 gallon of great tasting stuff, I would compare it to a fine Bacardi with a more pleasant smell. P.S. my original intent was a higher ABV of clean tasting spirits, I did not acheive this. I was pleasantly surprised by how neutral what little I got tasted.
Last edited by dkslopoke on Sun Aug 25, 2024 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Been sipping on the %50 strait, Lovin it. , I will add this recipe. 18 gallon ss still, copper mesh and ceramic collectors. 15 lbs cracked corn, 20lbs sugar, 1 quart raw honey. 15gls water brought to boil for adding sugar and sanitizing still, wait till cools to 110, add corn and honey. cool to 105 add 3 tbls bakers yeast. wait 5 minutes add 3 tbls of dead yeast and bee pollen blended together 50/50 "i used a coffee grinder". Try it yourself and please let me know what ya all think... Maybe it will make in the tried and true? lol.
, So I am researching yeast and nutrients at the moment as I need to "read up" to be successful. As I was deep into the research of yeist nutrient, and other activity's of yeast I came across a study publication that talked about the effects of pollen on Saccharomyces Cerevisiae during fermentation. As a beekeeper myself I was instantly intrigued as I often use dead brewers yeast to make as a starter bee bread for my brood boxes. The bee's love this stuff! Anyway, I shouldn't post links to citation as this is my first post and link are a no no. In conclusion, the bee pollen somehow gives the yeast the ability to survive higher ABV. Has anyone ever tried using bee pollen in their mead or wash? I plan to use it in my next wash and pitch it with the yeast and nutrient, I will keep you all posted. 
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