Temperature Cuts and Vol of Foreshots

[Telsmere]

I’m an experienced brewer but novice distiller. I’m setting up for my first run of a grain mash. I have a 3-gal Mile-Hi Mighty-Mini still that can be run in either a pot or reflux format, I’ll be using the pot still format to start with. Clearly, there is no substitute for experience when trying to figure out how to make cuts, but lacking that experience, I need to start somewhere. After reading materials in your Beginners Guide, I assembled the following table regarding the cuts:
Temperature at top of Column oz per 5 gal of 10% ABV wash ml/gal of 10% ABV wash
Foreshots up to 175 deg F 4 118
Heads 176-196 deg F
Hearts 196-203 deg F
Tails 203-208 deg f

These are clearly a little subjective, but still it comes down to removing the ethanol and various other organic molecules from a mostly water-alcohol azeotrope, so it’s chemistry as well. My Questions:

1. I live at 8000 feet. How should I adjust the temperatures above using an elevation or atmospheric pressure correction to fit my altitude?

2. I can obviously correct the volumes of foreshots for a 3 gal run from the information above for a 5 gal run. However, for a 5 gal run, approximately what volumes of heads, hearts, and tails should I expect to fill out this table?

3. If I use a 10% ABV wash and run two 5 gal batches through a stripping run without making any cuts, and then do a spirit run, will the approximate volumes of Foreshots running a 40% ABV stripping run derivative be about 2X the vol you would expect if I had not made the stripping run. In other words, by stripping two 5 gal batches and combining the product for a spirit run, should I expect about 8 oz of Foreshots or would I somehow get more due to the higher ABV of the product in the still?
4. Does the % of product that comes out as Foreshots, Heads, Hearts, and Tails change any with the % ABV of the wash (or of the product from the spirit run) ? (This assumes I run the process correctly, slowly increase temperatures, and watch all the various mechanical processes accurately)

5. Finally, how would any of this change if I were using the still in the reflux format ?
Thanks for any help you could offer:

[zapata]

1. Just make up different numbers to reflect the altitude, that's how you came up with the first set of numbers.
2. Between 0 and 5 gallons for any one category. The total for all categories should be less than 5 gallons.
3. Yes, or no, you make that up. And for the first time I'm not being the slightest bit cheeky. The distinction between heads and foreshots is entirely arbitrary. There is absolutely nothing wrong with A) not making the distinction at all and taking no "fores" cut B) Taking the same fores cut for each of your options, since fores cuts are arbitrary there is no logical foundation that they are additive. This argument is supported by the fact that you would find fractions are not additive if you had the means or motivation to do full GCMS analysis on each fraction. C) Of course you double the foreshots because you doubled the volume, and the you have arbitrarily assigned a volume to the fores cut so to be logical you have to double it. All are practically equal, your choice.
4. Yes.
5. It would all be different. Or exactly the same since you made it up. Presumably you would make up different numbers for a reflux model though.

I want to highlight one other thing you didn't ask, but that stands out

This assumes I run the process correctly, slowly increase temperatures, and watch all the various mechanical processes accurately

This is gonna be so much easier than you are thinking. You literally can't do it correctly or incorrectly. "slowly increase temperatures"? That's cute, you think you can influence the laws of physics and are worried you might fuck them up. Pop quiz, have you ever in your life fucked up and changed the boiling point of water, taking air pressure into account? Have you ever absent mindedly frozen water at 150 degrees? "watch all the various mechanical processes accurately" likewise, do you think the laws of physics care how attentive you are? The phrase "a watched pot never boils" comes to mind. It of course speaks to the human experience and psyche, not the fickle physics of boiling.

Editing to add the practical advice I left out.
Keep your chart. Fill it out AFTER you've made your cuts. There is zero foundation for making cuts based on temperature, strength or volume. The only thing that makes sense is to make cuts based on chemical composition and a judgement of what chemicals are desirable and which ones aren't. Since you aren't a walking analytical library, you ascertain chemical composition and desirability based on your nose and taste buds. It's that simple.

The data for time, volume, temperature, strength is just that, data. It's not especially relevant data. Relevant data would be the amount of amyl alcohol or acetone or whatever in your wash. If you had actual data for every single of the thousands of compounds that are in wash, and you had 6 figures worth of engineering software then you'd be able to generate a reasonable chart ahead of time. And after spending $150k to develop the chart, you'd still have to just do it manually and judge how it went with your nose and mouth.

[Salt Must Flow]

I wouldn't worry about any of this. Taking notes is fine, but this sounds like you just did a stripping run. Am I correct?

With a good reflux still, during a spirit run, the foreshots smell distinctly like acetone. Tails is concentrated right up at the very end, they smell & taste like $hit so that cut is no brainer. For me the biggest challenge is the heads cut. If I get too much heads in my product I can feel it when drinking and it is disappointing. I just toss it back in the boiler, dilute it a LOT and run it again.

Cuts just aren't done based on repeatable volumes and/or temperatures. Just do your run, let the product air out for a day or two then just do your cuts by whether smell, taste or both.

[Demy]

A little theory is a good thing but, as pointed out by others, cuts are made with the sense of smell first and possibly taste, it remains the best method .. you could distill a ferment made with the same ingredients and discover that they have cuts (volumes ) slightly (or very) different. Taking notes helps a lot because you know what to expect from your ferment but then cut with your senses.

[Saltbush Bill]

Forget all the numbers for cuts......your nose and taste buds will teach you a lot more a lot quicker.
Numbers will serve one purpose and one purpose only....to confuse hell out of you and to double the length of the learning curve.
Read through a few of the " how to make cuts" type threads first.....be sure to air your jars for at least 24 before trying to make cuts.
Take your time.....it doesnt have to happen right now.....walk away if you become confused, come back an hour later.

[LWTCS]

All good advice.

Cuts volumes are subjective to a degree so dont overthink. Rely more on your senses just like you would if you were evaluating a new food for the first time.

[BrewinBrian44]

I feel like you guys have to answer one of these threads about “cuts by temperature” weekly. No offense to the new guy asking, there’s so much mis-information out there regarding this. When I was new and made the bad decision to buy a still spirits T500, the temperature cuts method was literally in the instruction manual. I remember asking the same question as this dude and got the same responses.

To the OP, use the google HD power search function on the parent site. It will save you a lot of time!

[NZChris]

It sounds like you found advice in the Beginners Guide that shouldn’t be there. You should be able to successfully run grains without any thermometers.

Personally, I would only use my reflux head for vodka and neutral, not for flavoured products.

[cob]

After reading materials in your Beginners Guide,

Can you please post a link to the beginners guide that you used to compile your chart?

[Fwapsk]

I've run my still about 6 times in total now, but I still don't feel confident in my taste and smell to mix and blend the heads, hearts and tails well. Certainly I recognize now the ugly potent smell in the foreshots vs the clean hearts, and the last run I actually felt the fusel oils in the tails when compared to the hearts, but the deep heads and hearts often smell so clean to me I cannot differentiate well. I water it down and taste half a teaspoon as I go but still struggle to come to solid confident conclusions. I would love to walk through the process first hand with an experienced blender to get his input and learn how he evaluates each, but unfortunately I do not know one living close by in NH, USA. Ultimately though, I end up redistilling probably most of the heads and tails in my next run (basically a 1.5x distillation process) and I am really enjoying the end product and the gf and my friends all love it! So I guess I am doing something right

[psf]

I am really enjoying the end product and the gf and my friends all love it! So I guess I am doing something right

This is the most important part. I'd say that you are doing it right at the end of the day.

[Saltbush Bill]

but the deep heads and hearts often smell so clean to me I cannot differentiate well.

If it smells clean it is clean......trust your nose and your own growing abilty.
I think your over thinking it.

[elbono]

Can you please post a link to the beginners guide that you used to compile your chart?

I don't know if the OP was looking at this but sharing the external link in this page has gotten my chops busted here.
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Stripping_run
The time to learn wiki markup and make the wiki really good
(it's ok but far from great) is much less than the time spent busting chops IMHO.

I don't understand why some spend considerable time responding to a post they consider stupid instead of muttering ANOTHER FSCKING IDIOT under their breath and moving on either. To each their own..

I hope to learn enough and find enough time to be useful on improving the wiki but I enjoy that kind of thing, again, to each their own.

[Saltbush Bill]

I don't know if the OP was looking at this but sharing the external link in this page has gotten my chops busted here.
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Stripping_run

I'll see what can be done

[cob]

The parent site contains some outdated information, and is not alterable do to copyright restrictions.

it has been discussed many times this being one. viewtopic.php?f=33&t=12696

[Yummyrum]

Cob , the original Parent site is gone … archived somewhere . The new parent site is basically a wiki

[Saltbush Bill]

I don't know if the OP was looking at this but sharing the external link in this page has gotten my chops busted here.
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Stripping_run

I'll see what can be done

Elbono that link has now been deleted from the wiki page, Thanks to Uncle Jesse.

[Ben]

but I still don't feel confident in my taste and smell to mix and blend the heads, hearts and tails well.

Dilute more. Drop down to 20% or even further.

[NormandieStill]

but I still don't feel confident in my taste and smell to mix and blend the heads, hearts and tails well.

Dilute more. Drop down to 20% or even further.

+1. I found that cuts got a little easier and less inebriating when I started proofing down further than 40%.

[dkslopoke]

Hello, I am a novice distiller as well, I use the temp and burn method with smell, usually don't taste foreshots and stop at %50 ABV so never get into tails. My still has a riser with "head" room and a valve on top so when heating up that valve is open until i hit 180 degrees. At this point I close the valve and start my run. I get a nice flow instantly at which point I do a burn test, Foreshots burn orange while heads burn clear or blue in a dark room "safety is key here" do not perform this test near your still, you probably know this but needs to be stated. After confirming you are in your heads with the burn test you know at least you have a safe alcohol. Now the rest is completely up to you with taste and smell, my senses tell me i am out of heads when I can comfortably smell the alcohol without being offended by the nose burn, also heads taste sweet to me for some reason, its not a pleasant flavor. I am in the hearts when drinking a spoon strait reminds me of a neutral rum or vodka. this will be a big distinction from heads. my last 18 gallon run produced only 1/4 quart of heads, 1 gallon of hearts, and I don't run tails. I stop distilling at 40-50 percent ABV depending on temp. Never let my vapor chamber over 192 degrees and when it starts do be a dribble I cut heat and leave in still for next mash. My methods are not textbook or even can be called correct in any way, but this is my method that I consider safe and effective.

[Saltbush Bill]

Temprature and flame testes are both half arsed ways of making cuts.
The only reliable method is using plenty of sample jars and your senses of smell and taste.
We all had to learn to do this the hard way, the sooner you start the sooner you will get the hang of it.
Using other methods will just enlarge the learning curve.....then end with less than perfect cuts anyway.
I'll try to find a couple of links that are around here, that disprove the flame test.
EDIT, just cut these and pasted from another thread on the same subject.
Two examples here.

Am I misunderstanding something?

The flame test is rubbish.
Here is an experiment that Yummyrum did, disproving the theory.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75486#p7571655
And here is another that proves the same thing.

[dkslopoke]

Lol, that video is fake. And the other test is introducing medium via wicks into the equation. In a well lit room as depicted in that video you shouldnt even be able to see the flame of good alcohol. Both spoons were bad alcohol. This video demonstrates the validity of the test... the test starts at minute 19.

[dkslopoke]

When I do my tests my flame is always clear. I can only feel the heat unless I do it in a dark room.

[jedneck]

Holy shit. I now know why george is considered an idjet. N made the rules.

[dkslopoke]

When I do my tests my flame is always clear. I can only feel the heat unless I do it in a dark room.

Lol, I thought someone would catch this

[dkslopoke]

Yea, flame test is pointless, there won't be methanol in your spirit if you pitch your foreshore up to 180 degrees, to anyone that says temperature is half as way to do cuts denies the validity of physics.

[dkslopoke]

Methanol boils off at ? Temp and ethanol at ? Temp? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there like a 30 degree difference???

[Yummyrum]

Methanol boils off at ? Temp and ethanol at ? Temp? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there like a 30 degree difference???

Yup you are correct 100% pure methanol does
and so does 100% pure ethanol .

But there are neither 100% of either …And that pathetic amount of Methanol likes to hang out with ethanol and water
.. so in reality …. You are wrong

[dkslopoke]

Methanol boils off at ? Temp and ethanol at ? Temp? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there like a 30 degree difference???

Yup you are correct 100% pure methanol does
and so does 100% pure ethanol .

But there are neither 100% of either ….. so in reality …. You are wrong

Ok, so now you think the compounds of each can be diluted? Hmmm. Wait are we trolling?

[Yummyrum]

Methanol boils off at ? Temp and ethanol at ? Temp? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there like a 30 degree difference???

Yup you are correct 100% pure methanol does
and so does 100% pure ethanol .

But there are neither 100% of either ….. so in reality …. You are wrong

Ok, so now you think the compounds of each can be diluted?

It’s obvious is it not .