MooseMan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:59 pm
Nice clean welds on those spools!
Really shaping up now eh? I bet you are chomping at the bit to get a run going on this beast. Are you going to passivate any of the welded areas?
I ended up passivating the welds on the interior of the spools. There were some spots of what appeared to be hints of slight rust. I mixed up some Citric Acid with a little water, applied it and left it sit. Later I thoroughly scrubbed the paste and rinsed it. Now all of those areas are sparkling and shiny clean.
Passivization was a good call on your part. I guess I had to see for myself before spending the time doing it.
While waiting for the sugar washes to ferment, I've been reworking my water supply. I basically threw together a PVC manifold with multiple 1/4" and 3/8" supply lines each with their own shutoff valves. The 3/8" outbound lines will be attached to swiveling elbows. The manifold itself will be clamped to a horizontal drain pipe beneath the sink so it will be easy to access.
This is what it looks like so far. Just waiting on a few fittings to finalize it.
Killing time waiting for the sugar washes to finish fermenting and working on finalizing the water lines as parts arrive.
I've been toying with the idea of installing a bypass valve for the reflux condenser. There have been times where the reflux condenser got too hot and I'd have to open the needle valve several turns to cool it quick. I'd then have to close the needle valve a number of turns. This bypass would allow me to open the valve on the right, briefly provide full flow to the reflux condenser and close the valve without having to adjust the needle valve at all. I can then make adjustments to the needle valve. I'm also in the habit of opening the valve wide open to cool the reflux condenser right after shutting down the still. This bypass would allow me to do that without changing the adjustment on the needle valve.
A while ago I installed a bypass on the 1/4" tubing setup for my 3" VM and it's a convenient little addition. These 3/8" fittings aren't cheap so I may hold off and complete the bypass some other time.
Last edited by Salt Must Flow on Wed Oct 02, 2024 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I've been toying with the idea of installing a bypass valve for the reflux condenser. There have been times where the reflux condenser got too hot and I'd have to open the needle valve several turns to cool it off. I'd then have to close the valve a number of turns. This bypass would allow me to open the valve on the right, briefly provide full flow to the reflux condenser and close the valve without having to adjust the needle valve at all. I can then make adjustments to the needle valve. I'm also in the habit of opening the valve wide open to cool the reflux condenser right after shutting down the still. This bypass would allow me to do that without changing the adjustment on the needle valve.
I'm confused as normal.
Why throttle the cooling water flow to a VM reflux condenser?
I've been toying with the idea of installing a bypass valve for the reflux condenser. There have been times where the reflux condenser got too hot and I'd have to open the needle valve several turns to cool it off. I'd then have to close the valve a number of turns. This bypass would allow me to open the valve on the right, briefly provide full flow to the reflux condenser and close the valve without having to adjust the needle valve at all. I can then make adjustments to the needle valve. I'm also in the habit of opening the valve wide open to cool the reflux condenser right after shutting down the still. This bypass would allow me to do that without changing the adjustment on the needle valve.
I'm confused as normal.
Why throttle the cooling water flow to a VM reflux condenser?
To send only as much water as necessary down the drain. I don't recirculate/recycle water. There's also that claim that you can super cool the reflux supposedly causing the column to be less efficient. My well water is approx 55F so I throttle it to conserve water. I have a thermowell on the outgoing water fitting on the reflux condenser. I tune the water flow based on temp. With my 3" VM, if the exiting water temp got much over 150F, vapor would start escaping above the reflux condenser. I tune the water flow to around 135F. I set a temp alarm so if it gets too hot, I can open the needle valve to lower the temp.
Salt Must Flow wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 6:46 pm
To send only as much water as necessary down the drain. I don't recirculate/recycle water. There's also that claim that you can super cool the reflux supposedly causing the column to be less efficient. My well water is approx 55F so I throttle it to conserve water. I have a thermowell on the outgoing water fitting on the reflux condenser. I tune the water flow based on temp. With my 3" VM, if the exiting water temp got much over 150F, vapor would start escaping above the reflux condenser. I tune the water flow to around 135F. I set a temp alarm so if it gets too hot, I can open the needle valve to lower the temp.
Just shaking Your tree of knowledge.
To see what would fall down and be easily picked up.
I posted this in this thread, but I figured I should put it here too since it's related to this build.
After 3D printing the knob, I glued it to the bolt head with epoxy. That's a Furniture Flange Coupling next to it.
I drilled a hole in the underside of a truss and installed the Furniture Flange Coupling. This allows me to screw in the 3/8" bolt and and secure the column so it can't fall over for any reason.
Previously I showed using a 3D printed pipe clamp to secure the reflux condenser to the truss, but if/when I remove the reflux condenser and cap it (stripping configuration) the clamp cannot be used. This bolt will secure the column with or without the use of the pipe clamp and easily tolerate any heat.
UPDATE: One of the two sugar washes have finished fermenting so I began clearing it today using Bentonite Clay. Tomorrow I should be able to strip the first wash and begin clearing the 2nd one. I should be able to strip the 2nd wash on Monday and begin the Spirit Run as soon as I can.
Stripping the first batch now at 11000W. I'm stripping with the gate valve on and the packing in the column because I intend to run in 'reflux mode' near the end. I like pulling out more alcohol at higher % ABV rather than stripping a higher volume at lower % ABV. I probably should have removed the gate valve, but I left it on just to see how it goes.
Each stripping run's Low Wines gets collected in an elevated keg. Then the Low Wines from each keg can be easily drained back into the boiler for the Spirit Run. For the spirit run, all I have to do is attach the reflux condenser.
Last edited by Salt Must Flow on Sun Oct 06, 2024 2:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
All set up for the 2nd stripping run. This time I removed the gate valve and linked BOTH of my shotgun condensers together. Last time with one shotgun, the low wines were exiting at 101F-108F with a water flow rate of 252-329 LPH. I'd like to at least see a lower product temp.
Yummyrum wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 2:46 pm
1100w …… is that a typo SMF
I thought you had 11,000 available .
Yup, a typo. Fixed it.
I'm confused, probably due to temporary sobriety.
Was the run at 1.1kw or 11kw?
When stripping, due to the wash foaming up
Power vs boiler volume is often a limiting factor.
Yummyrum wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 2:46 pm
1100w …… is that a typo SMF
I thought you had 11,000 available .
Yup, a typo. Fixed it.
I'm confused, probably due to temporary sobriety.
Was the run at 1.1kw or 11kw?
When stripping, due to the wash foaming up
Power vs boiler volume is often a limiting factor.
Yeah it was a typo. I originally wrote 1100W, but I meant to write 11000W. I corrected the typo. Stripping went great for both runs. No foaming or anything.
Started my first spirit run. Heated the boiler at 11000W until my temp alarm alerted me that vapor was beginning to rise up the base of the column. I reduced power to 5500W.
After stabilizing for about 15 min, the very top of the packing started to flood. I shut down and let the column drain. I started back up and stabilized at 80% power (4400W). Later bumped it up 85% (4675W) and eventually up to 95% (5225W). After a little while the very top started to flood again.
I did suspect that the Lava Rock I used for the top 3' of the column may be too small because that's what I used in my 3" VM. It never flooded even at 3000W. I believe the packing is a bit too small for this 4" operating at 5500W. I reduced power to 90% (4950W), let it stabilize for a good while and no flooding.
At 90% power (4950W) I started taking off foreshots, 2.5 turns of the knob, at 1.16 LPH. That's exactly twice the take-off rate of my 3" VM while taking off foreshots. Still relatively slow and boring.
So far so good. Just need to upgrade the Lava Rock and I should be able to operate at 5500W or higher with no risk of flooding.
Last edited by Salt Must Flow on Tue Oct 08, 2024 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yummyrum wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 1:00 pm
I’d be happy with that SMF . 6 lph is nothing to sneeze at
I agree, but I'm certain it can hit at least 6.5 LPH at 5500W, maybe more. To do that, I'd have to scale up the Lava Rock. My goal with this 4" build was to double the performance of the 3". So far it appears to be doing just that aside from the packing forcing me to dial back 10%. The 3' of ceramic packing at the bottom seems to be doing its job well. I may not replace it with Lava Rock, but I'll see later down the road.
I stopped the spirit run yesterday and started back up again today. I've been playing around with the number of gate valve turns (1/2 turn at a time), measuring take-off rate and noting the % ABV. I got in the habit of testing each setting twice. I'd make a 1/2 turn adjustment on the gate valve, wait a while, test the take-off rate, note the results then do it again.
The column is functioning great! I've been stepping up the take-off rate and it appears to easily function at twice the rate as my 3" VM. I have noticed a difference in predicted performance because I'm only running this still at 90% 4950W rather than 5500W due to the smaller Lava Rock packing. I noticed a 1% ABV drop when taking off faster than I should. That 1% drop spreads across a wide plateau of take-off rates, but I'm trying to operate at optimal speed at optimal % ABV.
At 90% power, 4950W, 7 turns of the valve, I get 5.27-5.62 LPH at 97.9 % ABV
7.5 turns of the valve, I get 5.6 LPH at 97.9 % ABV
8 turns of the valve, I get 5.95 LPH at 97.9% ABV
8.5 turns of the valve, I get 6.3 LPH at 97% ABV - Notice the % ABV dropped slightly!
9 turns of the valve, I get 6.58-6.65 LPH at 97% ABV.
I stopped testing at this point because it is clear I've went past optimal take-off rate at this power input using this packing. Once I upgrade the Lava Rock, I'll be able to operate at least at 100% power 5500W, at a higher take-off rate and the % ABV should remain at least 97.9%.
Other than minor tweaks, I'd say this build is complete and tested. Upgrade the Lava Rock packing with 1/2" size and screen it appropriately. I'd like to replace some of the CRAPPY 4" clamps with quality clamps. I'd like to install a water pressure regulator so that my well water fluctuations do not reflect in the thermowell readings for the reflux condenser. I might try using two needle valves instead of just one like I'm currently using and see if that solves the issue (instead of a pressure regulator).
pipes+hose wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 6:06 pm
I don't recall seeing any vacuum or drying agents to get past azeo so if you appear to have 97.9%abv then your meter isn't reading right.
Azeo is 97.2 abv.
You can't tell if you're meter is off by just 0.7% or more.
A great column and write up, and I'm sure some mighty fine product. But not *quite* that abv unless there's something i'm missing.
I'm sure the meter isn't perfect, but it is registering differences. When it's pegged out to the max, I consider that good. When I see it drop when all other conditions are the same, I consider that as a drop in % ABV.
Salt Must Flow wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 6:16 pm
I'm sure the meter isn't perfect, but it is registering differences. When it's pegged out to the max, I consider that good. When I see it drop when all other conditions are the same, I consider that as a drop in % ABV.
Your right, accurately measuring fractions of a percent near azio becomes progressively more difficult.
Repeatability on cheap alcometers is good, accuracy not so much,
But even cheap, wide band alcohol hydrometers can see relatively small changes.
For accurate bragging rights.
The high dollar, narrow range, and fragile ones rule
Nice build Salt and thanks for sharing info.
Salt Must Flow wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 6:16 pm
I'm sure the meter isn't perfect, but it is registering differences. When it's pegged out to the max, I consider that good. When I see it drop when all other conditions are the same, I consider that as a drop in % ABV.
Your right, accurately measuring fractions of a percent near azio becomes progressively more difficult.
Repeatability on cheap alcometers is good, accuracy not so much,
But even cheap, wide band alcohol hydrometers can see relatively small changes.
For accurate bragging rights.
The high dollar, narrow range, and fragile ones rule
The reported % ABV with temp correction wasn't what I was focusing on, but I assumed someone would ask what it was with temp correction so I thought I should include it. The temp stayed consistent, but there was a 1/2 % drop on the hydrometer. I agree quibbling over % is not worthwhile. What I was focusing on mainly was the take-off rates and the moment I saw a slight drop % ABV. That correlates with what I had hoped. Since I had to reduce power by 10%, the predicted performance of this 4" column followed the numbers just about perfectly. After updating the packing, the take-off rate should increase without any drop in % ABV. I should reach the goal of 6.5 LPH or higher at 5500W. This goal isn't far away at all so I might even be able to exceed it.
I saw the ABV figure as "Too High" too, but these things are definitely not accurate unless you buy high grade lab kit, so it's just a guide.
Regardless of the small inaccuracy, I totally get what you were/are saying and trying to achieve.
Give or take a drip, 6L an hour of neutral is some serious output!
You most certainly can call this build a success SMF, and I've enjoyed it along with you.
I achieved 96. Something on my side by side still at 3. Something lph. There's something to be said about having your still runnin at optimum speed, many factors are needed. The point n where its running max without flooding is it I've found with packed columns.
Here's to alcohol, the cause of, and solution to, all life's problems.
"Homer J Simpson"
Very cool build and thread, been great reading through it! I too look for ways to utilize my 3D printer in my other hobbies, haven't found much use yet.
Why a gate valve and why not an electric ball valve? They are reasonably priced but could allow you to operate easier from the ground.
"In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier
BlueSasquatch wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 12:21 pm
Very cool build and thread, been great reading through it! I too look for ways to utilize my 3D printer in my other hobbies, haven't found much use yet.
Why a gate valve and why not an electric ball valve? They are reasonably priced but could allow you to operate easier from the ground.
I've never looked into those electric ball valves. I'll have to check them out and see how they're controlled.
Gate valves are really nice because they're very easy to use and it's about as simple as it gets to have repeatability. Just count the number of turns and if you use the parts on the knob, you can get within 1/8th turn precision. I've never had to be more accurate than counting full turns and half turns of the knob though. I only have to climb the ladder to start taking off foreshots, again to take off faster for heads and again to take off hearts. Once tails hits, I just shut down. Automating the valve would be a luxury, but one I don't see as a priority 'yet'.
Right now I'm looking to optimize clearing my wash after fermentation and the fluid transfer to the boiler. That's my next project. After that, I'm sure I'll be open to future projects.
