Water level indicator

[Tammuz]

3 indicator

Has anyone used this type of sensor in a steam generator?

[quadra]

I have a 4 pin unit on the shelf for steam generator project I am going to build this holiday season. I like the idea of non mechanical sensors and have seen how reliable this system is in my old espresso machine. I originally was going to use one probe as reference one as low limit e-stop, one as fill level, and the last as an overfill e-stop but am now considering the two e-stops with a high and low limit fill to minimize the fill solenoid short cycling itself to death.

[Tammuz]

Good to know. I planned on one for stopping a top off, one for starting a top off w/alarm. One for shutting down after a 2 min alarm if too low.

[zach]

Is there a off the shelf controller for this probe or a wiring diagram for using this probe?

[Tammuz]

Google for that info, an install guide would help you figure it out. I used them on tanks when I used to work on yachts. I notice now they have Bluetooth capabilities.

[zach]

So I found a level relay that looks like it would work with this probe for $12.

It might be worth a try. I would install one for low level cut out of the heater element and a second for operating level in the boiler.

[Yummyrum]

I have a 4 pin unit on the shelf for steam generator project I am going to build this holiday season. I like the idea of non mechanical sensors and have seen how reliable this system is in my old espresso machine. I originally was going to use one probe as reference one as low limit e-stop, one as fill level, and the last as an overfill e-stop but am now considering the two e-stops with a high and low limit fill to minimize the fill solenoid short cycling itself to death.

I suspect that might cause erratic steamer operation .When the unit tops up , it will quench the boil .I think this is why the mechanical fill or float operated solenoids are used .


I have often thought ( every-time I over fill my boiler ) that I should have one of these to let me know or cut flow when I reach my desired fill level .

[Tammuz]

Or you can work off a compensating drip emitter once you get a rough idea how much water you loose in an hour. This is just an idea not operational. But I can't see the pressure in a boiler holding back low flow in a large pipe.
If you do use them make sure you match the threads.

[quadra]

I suspect that might cause erratic steamer operation .When the unit tops up , it will quench the boil .I think this is why the mechanical fill or float operated solenoids are used .


I have often thought ( every-time I over fill my boiler ) that I should have one of these to let me know or cut flow when I reach my desired fill level .

I believe it is a way to substantially reduce that issue. Mechanical floats have a fixed range of travel between on/ off and unless an electronic method is used there is no adjustment to sensitivity - if boiler pressure surging acts on the float level column the only way it will be limited is by flooding the system to the point the float can no longer drop. The probe controllers I am looking at have adjustable time delays and sensitivity, and unlike the mechanical float the probes can be adjusted or cut to increase or decrease the active range, allowing much smaller additions and temperature swings. This system also removes the mechanical switch and float as potential points of failure and adds high and low e-stop.
The controller I am considering also has a manual momentary switch, that if I am reading it correctly will take care of the initial fill and allow me to manually top up while tuning the system... without overfilling

https://canada.newark.com/multicomp-pro ... 9gQAvD_BwE

[NormandieStill]

I suspect that might cause erratic steamer operation .When the unit tops up , it will quench the boil .I think this is why the mechanical fill or float operated solenoids are used .


I have often thought ( every-time I over fill my boiler ) that I should have one of these to let me know or cut flow when I reach my desired fill level .

I believe it is a way to substantially reduce that issue. Mechanical floats have a fixed range of travel between on/ off and unless an electronic method is used there is no adjustment to sensitivity - if boiler pressure surging acts on the float level column the only way it will be limited is by flooding the system to the point the float can no longer drop. The probe controllers I am looking at have adjustable time delays and sensitivity, and unlike the mechanical float the probes can be adjusted or cut to increase or decrease the active range, allowing much smaller additions and temperature swings. This system also removes the mechanical switch and float as potential points of failure and adds high and low e-stop.
The controller I am considering also has a manual momentary switch, that if I am reading it correctly will take care of the initial fill and allow me to manually top up while tuning the system... without overfilling

https://canada.newark.com/multicomp-pro ... 9gQAvD_BwE

Traditional lever arm float valves (like the ones in old toilet cisterns or the cold water header tanks in the UK) have a natural tapering off of the flow as you approach the end point. As long as they're not fitted in the boil chamber then they should just allow a trickle which will match the losses near perfectly.

[Bolverk]

I've got this mechanical float and had zero issues with it. Albeit I've only got about 25 hours of use but it's performance has so far been reliable.

MEUPMEOP 1/2'' Automatic Water Level Control Valve Auto Shut Off Ball Mini Float Valve 304 Stainless Steel Float Valve https://a.co/d/6jhoeZ3

Incidentally it also served as great early indicator of a pressure problem.

Ive never been a fan overly complicated automation... analog/mechanical tends to be cheaper and dummy proof.

[Tammuz]

These elements have no moving parts. Last a long time. Cheap. Maintenance about every 2 years when in just water.

Although I do like Bolverks compact generator. He just developed it too late for me. Next time...

[zach]

For me a low level cut out of the heating element is a requirement for a low volume boiler. I don't trust myself enough to prevent a dry fire if the water feed is disrupted during a long run. This floatless level control seems ideal for boiler controls.

[Bolverk]

These elements have no moving parts. Last a long time. Cheap. Maintenance about every 2 years when in just water.

Although I do like Bolverks compact generator. He just developed it too late for me. Next time...

Ok that does sound nice... maybe I'll look into this as well.

[Bolverk]

Ok after doing a bit of reading on these it does seem like a really good idea...

[quadra]

One of the issues I am sorting out is the probes; the unit I have on the shelf, is a fixed probe unit that I can trim to adjust.. that is fine but I was inspired by an old espresso maker that uses probes in a reservoir to determine the volume of water for 4 different shots. The probes are easily adjusted to allow a volume based charge that is not affected by the temperature or pressure on the delivery side. I can easily slide the probes up and down to " tune" the volume in the reservoir that delivers the dose.
I am looking at alternatively building a Triclamp plate with compression nipples I can insert the probes in so that I can easily adjust the probes up and down. This triclamp plate will be easier to add the topside steam pressure port to the boiler and keep the chamber diameter reasonably small.... but am dragging my heels as I hate drilling and tapping stainless.


It should all be good in theory, but you know what they say about theory and practice.

[Bolverk]

Can you use a bulkhead fitting?

Like this?

Beduan 1" Female Bulkhead Water Tank Connector Stainless Steel Thru-bulk Fitting https://a.co/d/cGcgYGW

Or a 2" tc to 1"?

DERNORD Sanitary 2 Inch Tri Clamp to 1 Inch NPT Female Tri Clover https://a.co/d/1hfsF7g

[Born_Free]

Is there a off the shelf controller for this probe or a wiring diagram for using this probe?

Hah, how have I lived this long and never ran into one of these?

Here is a good manual from Omron that has lots of details.

https://www.ia.omron.com/data_pdf/guide ... _e_6_2.pdf

[zach]

Thanks Born Free!

It looks line the shell of the boiler can be used in place of an electrode.

I want two relays (Low level cut out & operating level) so I could use a 3 pin probe instead of 4 pin if I use the shell of the boiler. If you are placing the electrodes in a non conductive shell like a sight glass I think you need 4 electrodes to operate two relays.

My thought is that the output for "Water shortage" relay in the drawing below would kill a power relay for my electrical element.

Then the "Pump control" relay would power a make up solenoid valve that is energized to open.

[quadra]

That is the idea esentially. In the above drawing you are replacing the pump with a solenoid fill valve. That circuit also includes an alarm in the circuit ( something is was going to do with a normally open relay ) and the ability to easily wire indicator lights for status.

[quadra]

Is there a off the shelf controller for this probe or a wiring diagram for using this probe?

Hah, how have I lived this long and never ran into one of these?

Here is a good manual from Omron that has lots of details.

https://www.ia.omron.com/data_pdf/guide ... _e_6_2.pdf

The Omron equivalent 61f g4n is going to be $$$$. Keep in mind most of the applications in that manual are relatively slow still water. I will be building for a much more dynamic enviroment so being able to adjust delay will prevent all sorts of problems with the fill valve.

[zach]

[
The Omron equivalent 61f g4n is going to be $$$$.

At the jungle site search for this "Water Level Controller Floatless Level Switch C61F‑GP". It is not Omron but looks identical for $12.31

[Tammuz]

I have these to work with. Tied to an alarm,lights and another relay.

I just found this on AliExpress:
US $6.70 | Kegland 2 Inch Tri-Clover with 1/2 Female Thread (BSP)
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mqxCk0X

[shadylane]

I used to have a circuit to shut off the power to the boiler if the level dropped too low.
The boiler had a long stem thermometer that was insulated from the boiler.
When the stem was touching the wash, it acted like a battery and generated 0.3 volts.
The .3 volts was fed to a simple op amp based voltage comparator.
This drove a normally closed relay that was in series with the potentiometer.
Long story short when the liquid was too low the circuit disconnected the pot from the controller and the power was zero.

[Bradster68]

I used to have a circuit to shut off the power to the boiler if the level dropped too low.
The boiler had a long stem thermometer that was insulated from the boiler.
When the stem was touching the wash, it acted like a battery and generated 0.3 volts.
The .3 volts was fed to a simple op amp based voltage comparator.
This drove a normally closed relay that was in series with the potentiometer.
Long story short when the liquid was too low the circuit disconnected the pot from the controller and the power was zero.

Bravo Shaddy. . Either your close to being an electrical engineer,or good friends with one. When I was down south in the trade I made good friends with one. It's crazy what a genius this guy was when figuring out electrical issues like that.
No matter what we ask this guy, he always had an answer.
That right there is why this forum is like none other.