Yummy's Thumper build

[shadylane]

Looks like we have the same idea Yummy.
Cement floor, exterior metal siding spaced out a little from the slab and a gap between the floor and interior wall.
Big messes can be cleaned up with a spray hose.

[Yummyrum]

I love it Shady . Although I told myself when we moved here , “no more messes”

I’ve got a storm water drain along the back which drains out to the street curbside to stop the shed flooding when we get a down poor . So I have to be careful nit to send too much Molasses mess down the street
(That white down pipe from the shed gutter goes underground to our 22,000l tank )

Speaking of drains , we just had 120mm of rain dump last night . Might need to add some more .
Looks like we lost a couple of ‘nanas too

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Great looking set up Yummy. I've been following along pretty closely since the Goat is headed this direction.


Rusty

[Yummyrum]

Great looking set up Yummy. I've been following along pretty closely since the Goat is headed this direction.


Rusty

Thanks Rusty
I’m sure Goat distillery can easily pull this off iff’n what I’ve seen of it’s owner so far

I’m only one run in but man , I am impressed with the results so far .

I’ve tried Rum many ways . Pot stilled , Flute ( 3 and 4 plates ) and with single thumper and this is by far the best straight off the still . Time in the barrel will help .
No hint of anything Jamaican at this stage though .

[Tammuz]

I copied this style for my first thumper. I ended up giving it away and soldered a 2" ferrule to my boiler then used a 2" elbow. I then used a 1.5" down pipe soldered to the threads after filling in the slop with a fine copper powder,copper wire would have worked. I find this type of attachment allows my thumper to be a boiler on its own. The elbows allow lyne arms to go wherever you want and makes it easy to chain 3 kegs to a steam generator pretty easy. Love your shed.

[Yummyrum]

Hey Tammuz
Wanted to thank you for this link . You posted it in Hillbilly pop-stars dual retort topic , but I thought I’d copy it here too .
Only run this twice now , but the numbers in that article about High and Low wine charges seems to be what is dialling in on my setup too.

https://www.velier.it/en/rum/6211-an-an ... still.html

[shadylane]

I love it Shady . Although I told myself when we moved here , “no more messes”

Shit happens.
One of Murphy's laws say's shit probably won't happen, if you waste enough time preparing for it.

[Yummyrum]

Second crack at this . This time I had High and Low wines derived from an actual dual retort setup .

60litres of All molasses wash in boiler
5 litres of low wines @ 27% abv in first Thumper ( + 2 litres of wash because I wasn’t 100% sure the bottom of the thump-pipe was covered )
5 litres of High wines @72% abv in second Thumper .

This time ran a bit slower collecting at 3litres/h instead or 5 l/h on first run .

The cuts are fucking with my head . I mentioned after the first run that I felt there should be more heads jars included but It goes against everything everything we say and do on HD forum.

Individually , I would reject them even though there is something nice in each one , they just shout heads .

But I bit the bullet and did a few blends right upto and including everyone except the first .

The blends with all the heads included was definitely the winner . I thought I was kidding myself but have revisited these blends several times and yup . It works . Is it a bit hot , well thats the strange thing , I’m not getting that .

I’ve been making Rum for about 10 years now . Never have I considered including so much heads. I know I always pushed the envelope a bit further than most when it comes to heads cut but this is while next level . I wonder if I have been missing something all these years because I read that heads were bad .



So heres the cuts today .
One 500ml jar of heads .
About 7 litres of hearts at 86%
About 5 litres of High wines @72%
About 4.5litres of low wines . @23%

After emptying the Thumpers .
35 liters of Dunder in boiler ( started with 60 wash )
13.5 L in first Thumper
9 L in Second Thumper

[MooseMan]

The cuts are fucking with my head .

So heres the cuts today .
One 500ml jar of heads .

IMG_1584.jpeg

Holy shit Yummy, that's insane.

Does it taste like it's going to need much longer ageing as a consequence?
Do you think that it will be more likely to produce bad hangover symptoms too?
Are you planning to test?

If this really is what the second thumper (Retort I suppose) does to Rum, minimising "Bad" heads fractions to that level, it's got to be worth a few side by side tests.

[shadylane]

The cuts are fucking with my head . I mentioned after the first run that I felt there should be more heads jars included but It goes against everything everything we say and do on HD forum.

Wait a week or more before rushing to deciding what makes the cut.
Sample, blend and wait a while longer, then temper to drinking strength.
Keep notes because experience will change your opinion given time.

[Yummyrum]

The cuts are fucking with my head .

So heres the cuts today .
One 500ml jar of heads .

IMG_1584.jpeg

Holy shit Yummy, that's insane.

Does it taste like it's going to need much longer ageing as a consequence?
Do you think that it will be more likely to produce bad hangover symptoms too?
Are you planning to test?

If this really is what the second thumper (Retort I suppose) does to Rum, minimising "Bad" heads fractions to that level, it's got to be worth a few side by side tests.

Thats the funny thing Moose , it does not seem to have the usual heads burn .I can’t say if it will need more aging , but I’ll be sticking it in a barrel and expect it to stay there for a few years anyway .

I can’t comment on the potential for head ache . Me and headaches aren’t normally a thing .

I don’t think that a second retort is a magic thing per say , but the process of the proportioning of High and Low wines seems to squeeze the most alcohol out of a boiler full of wash than anything I have experienced before .

It probably wouldn’t work so well for say Whiskey . But Rum is all about the flavours in the heads so it works well for this .

[Yummyrum]

The cuts are fucking with my head . I mentioned after the first run that I felt there should be more heads jars included but It goes against everything everything we say and do on HD forum.

Wait a week or more before rushing to deciding what makes the cut.
Sample, blend and wait a while longer, then temper to drinking strength.
Keep notes because experience will change your opinion given time.

Maybe I should have waited a bit longer Shady .
I’d sat on the blends all day and if anything , it got better .
Incidentally , I always temper blends and samples to less than drinking strength so as not to mask anything .

Alas , I called it and dumped it into the barrel today so hopefully no regrets

[Bolverk]

Yummy,

Your results mirror mine when using a double retort.

What I suspect is going on is that there is more thermal degradation causing the aldehydes to breakdown into acids. Those acids have a higher BP than the ethanol and the acids are basically getting trapped in the retorts. The acids remain in the lees or become esters. If the acid does bond with an alcohol the BP decreases, and the new BP ends up being somewhere between the acid and the alcohol making it more likely to come over.

[Yummyrum]

Yummy,

Your results mirror mine when using a double retort.

What I suspect is going on is that there is more thermal degradation causing the aldehydes to breakdown into acids. Those acids have a higher BP than the ethanol and the acids are basically getting trapped in the retorts. The acids remain in the lees or become esters. If the acid does bond with an alcohol the BP decreases, and the new BP ends up being somewhere between the acid and the alcohol making it more likely to come over.

I think I catch what you are throwing Bolverk . But I really don’t understand it .


All I know is the heads I would have thought were a definite nogo when blended together with the obvious hearts seems not to be in the least bit offensive .

[MooseMan]

Yummy,

Your results mirror mine when using a double retort.

What I suspect is going on is that there is more thermal degradation causing the aldehydes to breakdown into acids. Those acids have a higher BP than the ethanol and the acids are basically getting trapped in the retorts. The acids remain in the lees or become esters. If the acid does bond with an alcohol the BP decreases, and the new BP ends up being somewhere between the acid and the alcohol making it more likely to come over.

That does make a great deal of sense Bolverk.
So there's acid hydrolysis reactions going on, and then further to that there are esterification reactions too.
All encouraged by the extra exposure in the 3 separate vessels.
It's how my brain had loosely formed it too as I've been reading about ester hydrolysis for a while.

It still seems like a drastic reduction in early heads fractions though, almost like heads that get stacked in a reflux column.

[Yummyrum]

It still seems like a drastic reduction in early heads fractions though, almost like heads that get stacked in a reflux column.

thats what I was wondering Moose , like I have literally hundreds of liters of Rum wash maybe close to 2000 now since I started this last session and I’m now down to 500mls of nasty . WTF

I don’t get it . Something is making the “typical nasty “ nice

[Bolverk]

Sorry Bolverk I’m not getting it . Can you dumb it down a bit

The me preface with im no chemist and I'm 100% ready to be wrong on this...

In the Ehrlich pathway amino acids become keto acids, then form aldehydes, then alcohols. Aldehydes are just incomplete alcohol molecules. So by thermal degradation they kinda revert back to previous states (amino and keto acids).

For example: the boiling point of leucine (the amino acid responsible for isoamyl alcohol) is about 128c. But when bonded with a higher alcohol (lower boiling point) say 70c, the newly formed ester has a BP of about 99c and that is something that will come over in your run.

I know we don't like to talk about BPs here, and this is an oversimplified explanation, but it's the easiest way to explain it.

[Bolverk]

That does make a great deal of sense Bolverk.
So there's acid hydrolysis reactions going on, and then further to that there are esterification reactions too.
All encouraged by the extra exposure in the 3 separate vessels.
It's how my brain had loosely formed it too as I've been reading about ester hydrolysis for a while.

It still seems like a drastic reduction in early heads fractions though, almost like heads that get stacked in a reflux column.

Ive never read this but I suspect its why the high and low wines abvs are so important to the double retort process. By installing higher abv vapor into lower abv liquid and revaporizing this new higher abv juice and sending it over at an even higher abv to the next you are subjecting those acids trapped in the retorts to ever increasing heat and alcohol concentration in a low water environment... even without the sulfuric as a catalyst they are near perfect conditions for ester formation.

[Black Bull]

Interesting results Yummy, I've now got over 100L of high and low wines waiting for me to finish my double retort setup.
Can't wait to run it.

[Saltbush Bill]

I've always shied away from this high ester Rum stuff but you blokes are starting to get me interested after all of this time.
I always did like the idea of experimenting with double thumpers. Thinking I might have to hit the road and pay you a visit to have a look and a wee sample Yummy.
You going to be doing another run anytime soon?

[Yummyrum]

I've always shied away from this high ester Rum stuff but you blokes are starting to get me interested after all of this time.
I always did like the idea of experimenting with double thumpers. Thinking I might have to hit the road and pay you a visit to have a look and a wee sample Yummy.
You going to be doing another run anytime soon?

Just finished last of this three but going shopping for some more Molly . Let me know when you are thinking of popping up and I’ll get something happening .

As far as High ester Rum goes . You might be as unexcited as I am . All this Jamaican setup and protocol with High wines /Low wines so far has netted me about Zero as far as anything out of the ordinary . I’m not getting anything that I would call a Banana , Pineapple or Bubble gum .

To be honest , I’d rather not have any of that if there is any residual smell and taste of Vinegar or Vomit . Hell , if I want to smell some vomit , I can go raid the Chem store at work and sniff some Butyric acid . ….. but I won’t because it makes me want to chuck .

And why the hell anyone would want to drink anything that smells like that is beyond me .

Anyway ….. I digress .

What is exciting me about this is the heads ….. or lack if them .

Did run three today.

Again , took all what I would consider should be heads in jars .

Collected the obvious hearts cut and switched out to tails .
Did the blend and again , all the heads except in this case the first two I included . I can’t explain it .

I think I did go too far into tails this time .

This is the funny thing with this process . You have to end up with three components . ….. so from a 60litre wash ,
Basically , there is no heads . …. You basically take a 500-750ml cut . Then you collect about 5-6litres as hearts , then you collect about 5 litres as High Wines and then 5 litres as Low wines .at this stage , you are pulling water .

These three proportions are important . As you need the High and Low wines to recharge the Thumpers .

If you cut out too much as heads , there is not enough hearts , then not enough High and low wines for the next run .

It seems to be a balancing act that maximises efficiency .

[Yummyrum]

Interesting results Yummy, I've now got over 100L of high and low wines waiting for me to finish my double retort setup.
Can't wait to run it.

Woow ….. thats a lot BB

Are you sure you have High and Low wines ?

I always assumed that High wines was heads and Low wines was Tails .

Only recently found out that High wines ment tails that come off the still higher that 50% abv and Low wines ment Tails that come of the still at less than 50% abv

Damn wish I had more Low wines . Spilled a bottle today and a bit short . Might be adding some wash to make up next round.

[Yummyrum]

Yummy,

Your results mirror mine when using a double retort.

What I suspect is going on is that there is more thermal degradation causing the aldehydes to breakdown into acids. Those acids have a higher BP than the ethanol and the acids are basically getting trapped in the retorts. The acids remain in the lees or become esters. If the acid does bond with an alcohol the BP decreases, and the new BP ends up being somewhere between the acid and the alcohol making it more likely to come over.

That does make a great deal of sense Bolverk.
So there's acid hydrolysis reactions going on, and then further to that there are esterification reactions too.
All encouraged by the extra exposure in the 3 separate vessels.
It's how my brain had loosely formed it too as I've been reading about ester hydrolysis for a while.

It still seems like a drastic reduction in early heads fractions though, almost like heads that get stacked in a reflux column.

Thanks Bolverk and Moose , I’m still not sure I totally get it but I’ts making some sense .

I’ve always wondered why though …… we make a Neutral , we want to totally eliminate the Ethyl acetate like it’s some demon .

Then, when it comes to Rum suddenly , it’s fashionable .

Funny thing is , I’m not getting even the slightest hint of it

And yes , I know it well , I have a bottle of it at work to remind me of the goal .





Maybe my ferments sux

[Bolverk]

As far as High ester Rum goes . You might be as unexcited as I am . All this Jamaican setup and protocol with High wines /Low wines so far has netted me about Zero as far as anything out of the ordinary . I’m not getting anything that I would call a Banana , Pineapple or Bubble gum .

To be honest , I’d rather not have any of that if there is any residual smell and taste of Vinegar or Vomit . Hell , if I want to smell some vomit , I can go raid the Chem store at work and sniff some Butyric acid . ….. but I won’t because it makes me want to chuck .

And why the hell anyone would want to drink anything that smells like that is beyond me .

Yeah, it's because you aren't introducing any carboxylic acids so you aren't going to get those same ester effects.

Honestly man, you don't get any hints of vinegar or vomit as the acid either exists in the stillage or turns into an ester and comes over with a beautiful fruit aroma.

The food science part of this is a lot of fun to experiment with. Just for shits, take say 50 mls of some high proof like 80%+ add in like 5 mls of regular 5% white vinegar and 1 ml of sulfuric. Give it 15 mins and you'll smell what I'm talking about. You'll totally see you get no nose of the acedic acid.

"High ester" like 1000 + absolutely tastes like bandaid solvent, and needs to be in a mixed drink to be palatable, but "low ester" talking like 250 or less tastes the way a dole fruit cup smells.

You don't even have do do "high ester" a "low ester" rum is more estery than a whiskey, and if you like those phenolic smokey whiskys, you'd like this this too.

I'm not trying to convince you to do something you have no interest in but I think you don't have a full understanding that some esters doesn't mean high ester. Low ester is beautifully complex and absolutely palatable white and young.

[Yummyrum]

Thankyou Bolverk

A little is what I’m after .

So what do you suggest I do ?

[Bolverk]

I’ve always wondered why though …… we make a Neutral , we want to totally eliminate the Ethyl acetate like it’s some demon .

Then, when it comes to Rum suddenly , it’s fashionable .

Because you don't want flavor in a neutral and do in a rum is the best i can offer... heads has always been a big part of the rum profile.

Ive had this conversation with a few pros. The way we as home distillers are shitting the bed on making our cuts... We cut too clean to get any real flavor. Grim has an excellent post on SD right now about his experiments with talking smaller heads cut and even barreling pure heads and how wonderfully it matured.

[Yummyrum]

I’ve always wondered why though …… we make a Neutral , we want to totally eliminate the Ethyl acetate like it’s some demon .

Then, when it comes to Rum suddenly , it’s fashionable .

Because you don't want flavor in a neutral and do in a rum is the best i can offer... heads has always been a big part of the rum profile.

Ive had this conversation with a few pros. The way we as home distillers are shitting the bed on making our cuts... We cut too clean to get any real flavor. Grim has an excellent post on SD right now about his experiments with talking smaller heads cut and even barreling pure heads and how wonderfully it matured.

Thankyou Bolverk

Yes I know why we want Neutral clean and cut it … I was being facetious .

I am in total agreeance with you .
In my opinion , the Home distiller approach has gone completely polarised in cuts paranoia to the point where it doesn’t work .

On the one hand , we want nice clean drinkable in 3months and on the other hand …….. it’s boring ,tasteless , lifeless swill .

So those of us that have been at it a while start aging for longer ….in barrels( instead of sticks in jars ) …. And before you know it we find ourselves doing what the commercial guys have been doing all along .

Funny ….. but it works

The head ache crew will disagree . Thankfully I’m not one . …..and I say that with full sincerity to those that are .

[Bolverk]

Thankyou Bolverk

A little is what I’m after .

So what do you suggest I do ?

If you use muck put 10% of your boiler charge in the boiler.

In the cousins process 1% acid in the final retort will produce a 1000 ester rum. You want way less than that so lets dial that back to 10% of that (this scales pretty linear up to 5%)

In your final retort use 50% abv high wines add .01% of that volume of that thumper in acedic acid, you can use vinegar but regular vinegar is only 5% acedic so it needs to be the acid that's .01% add about 10% of your acedic volume in sulfuric.

This should produce a noticeable but not over powering amount of generic tropical fruit smell.

[Chauncey]

It probably wouldn’t work so well for say Whiskey . But Rum is all about the flavours in the heads so it works well for this .

i see what you mean but it seems like it would be worth trying if the whiskey heads were not as offensive... there may be other useable flavors in there we arent tasting becuase they are masked by offensive heads? i definitely include some late heads or heads/hearts transition distillate in my blend.

[Bolverk]

It probably wouldn’t work so well for say Whiskey . But Rum is all about the flavours in the heads so it works well for this .

Not entirely true.. the original "sour mash" more closely resembled rum muck pits than what we call sour mashing now. Considering there are examples of old double thumpers dating back to the late 1800s that were filled with "singlings" (what we'd low wines now) the processes and the products aren't too terribly different. Early American Whiskey at least some of it was definitely closer to Jamaican rum than American whiskey is now.