Yummy's Thumper build

[shadylane]

A nice thing about homedistilling, we can make what we want.
Things like adding some molasses to to a whiskey mash and making Rumskey.

[Bolverk]

One thing I've always want to try with a double retort is to do a whiskey. Strip 1 full boiler full and separate those low wines into a high and low fraction 50% being the cut off. Next run would be new beer in the boiler and the <50% in the first retort and >50% in the second one. Emulating the Jamaican rum process but keeping with that historic reference to "singlings"

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

A nice thing about homedistilling, we can make what we want.
Things like adding some molasses to to a whiskey mash and making Rumskey.

I like it Shady.

I was thinking about trying sweet feed next, that's what I'm gonna call it! I mean isn't that kinda what sweet feed whiskey is? Corn, oats, barley and molasses...


Rusty

[shadylane]

Second crack at this . This time I had High and Low wines derived from an actual dual retort setup...


...The blends with all the heads included was definitely the winner . I thought I was kidding myself but have revisited these blends several times and yup . It works . Is it a bit hot , well thats the strange thing , I’m not getting that .

...I’ve been making Rum for about 10 years now . Never have I considered including so much heads. I know I always pushed the envelope a bit further than most when it comes to heads cut but this is while next level . I wonder if I have been missing something all these years because I read that heads were bad .

Sounds like using double thumpers, recycling the low and highwines are going to change the normal cuts protocol.
Long story short, let you make wider cuts and keep more of the alcohol the yeast made for you.

[shadylane]

Incidentally , I always temper blends and samples to less than drinking strength so as not to mask anything .

Same here, I temper to around 20% and let the shot glass settle down for awhile before sampling.
Usually I have several samples lined up in a row so I don't get thirsty while waiting.

[Black Bull]

Interesting results Yummy, I've now got over 100L of high and low wines waiting for me to finish my double retort setup.
Can't wait to run it.

Woow ….. thats a lot BB

Are you sure you have High and Low wines ?

I always assumed that High wines was heads and Low wines was Tails .

Only recently found out that High wines ment tails that come off the still higher that 50% abv and Low wines ment Tails that come of the still at less than 50% abv

Damn wish I had more Low wines . Spilled a bottle today and a bit short . Might be adding some wash to make up next round.

The way I interpreted the process, (Please correct me if I got it wrong)
An initial stripping run, high wines are heads down to 50ish percent and low wines from 50 down to sweet water.
I took a liter of fores, then I've got high wines at around 65% and lows at around 30%
Then for spirit run, wash in boiler, High wines in first retort and low wines plus about 10% muck in second retort.

[Bolverk]

The way I interpreted the process, (Please correct me if I got it wrong)
An initial stripping run, high wines are heads down to 50ish percent and low wines from 50 down to sweet water.
I took a liter of fores, then I've got high wines at around 65% and lows at around 30%
Then for spirit run, wash in boiler, High wines in first retort and low wines plus about 10% muck in second retort.

No, in rum speak the terms are a bit different.
heads are heads (pros don't make a fores cut)
High wines are high tails collected from 40-60%
Low wines are low tails collected from 30-40%
Tails are collected from 10-30%

With a double retort it's a one and done. There is no stripping run.

The rum beer, heads, tails, and muck go in the boiler
Low wines (low tails) go in the first retort
High wines (high tails), go in the second retort (if you're doing the cousins process, this is where you add your esterfied mix)

[tommysb]

I was trying to get my head around why we load different fractions where into these thumpers in terms of cuts and boiling points - maybe this is obvious to the quicker ones of you but it took me a while to think of this, so wanted to share it, and get feedback as to the accuracy of this mental 'model'!

In terms of the fractions, the high wines are the closest to the hearts cut. The point where hearts transition into high wines is a matter of taste, and the first part of high wines is almost acceptable as hearts.

With that in mind, high wines need least 'cleaning up', to be good again, and contain a higher proportion of desirable vs. undesirable compounds. So, loading into the last thumper the high wines get a 'single' distillation.

Next, the low wines are further from the good parts, but still contain some interesting flavours, so distillation of these in the first thump, and then redistillation in the second is necessary for us to have some nice outputs.

I wasn't thinking of heads and tails in this model, but Bolverk mentioned them in the last post, and extending the logic of my last two assertions they are 'further' from the hearts cut - (please don't be pedantic about heads here ) or at least, require the most 'cleaning up' to be acceptable. Hence they go into the boiler, and undergo 3 distillations (along with the wash).

In terms of energy for vaporisation -

We input our available energy into the wash in the boiler, and some is lost to surroundings, and some goes into the wash. The vaporised wash carries over into thumper 1, but with some energy losses. So, the energy available to the liquid in thumper 1 is less than the energy for the boiler. Luckily, thumper 1 is higher ABV, hence more volatile than the boiler wash, and easier to vaporise.

By the time we get to thumper 2, we have lost even more energy, but thankfully for us, that thumper has even higher ABV, so it's easier to vaporise yet again.

So we have an elegant solution where fractions closest to the hearts cut are both in need of least redistillation to become 'good', and also easier to redistill, requiring less energy input.

[Yummyrum]

The way I interpreted the process, (Please correct me if I got it wrong)
An initial stripping run, high wines are heads down to 50ish percent and low wines from 50 down to sweet water.
I took a liter of fores, then I've got high wines at around 65% and lows at around 30%
Then for spirit run, wash in boiler, High wines in first retort and low wines plus about 10% muck in second retort.

BB
Maybe you and me are labelling out thumpers differently . But the Thumper connected to the Boiler is the First one . That one gets loaded with the Low wines .
The next one is the second Thumper . That gets the High Wines .

If you read the link by Tammas , it suggests that the first Thumper should get 12.5% of the boiler charge filled with Low wines ( if I read that correct )

The Second Thumper should get 10% of the boiler charge filled with High wines.


So say you had 50 litres of wash in the boiler , you would have 6.25 litres of Low wines in the first Thumper and 5 litres of High wines in the Second Thumper .

This is what I have tried to recreate and it does seem to work so far .

So when you actually start running with the dual Thumpers , the High and Low Wines are the tails .

There is no heads cut . Basically just a Fores cut , then you keep all the hearts ( including everything that one would think were heads ) then start collecting your High and Low wines for next time .

The problem is when you are first starting out you need to start somewhere .

What you have proposed will get you cracking as regards High and low wines ( except for the reversal of the Thumpers ) .

For sure , your proportions are going to be a bit squewwiff for a couple of runs but you will dial it in .

The hearts after a few cycles will start having an ABV up around 85% or more . The high wines will have an AVB up around 75% . The Low wines are around 30% and stinky as and oily as fuck

[Yummyrum]

Thankyou Bolverk

A little is what I’m after .

So what do you suggest I do ?

If you use muck put 10% of your boiler charge in the boiler.

In the cousins process 1% acid in the final retort will produce a 1000 ester rum. You want way less than that so lets dial that back to 10% of that (this scales pretty linear up to 5%)

In your final retort use 50% abv high wines add .01% of that volume of that thumper in acedic acid, you can use vinegar but regular vinegar is only 5% acedic so it needs to be the acid that's .01% add about 10% of your acedic volume in sulfuric.

This should produce a noticeable but not over powering amount of generic tropical fruit smell.

Thanks Bolverk .
I am just having a few moments of confusion here .

In your final retort use 50% abv high wines add .01% of that volume of that thumper in acedic acid, you can use vinegar but regular vinegar is only 5% acedic so it needs to be the acid that's .01% add about 10% of your acedic volume in sulfuric.

You say use 50% abv high wines in final retort . My High wines are around 72% , so do I dilute them to 50% , and if so with what , water , wash or Dunder ?

You say “add 0.01% of that volume of the Thumper in acedic acid ( I’m assuming you mean Acetic acid )

So , assuming I am following the procedure in Tammus link that would suggest 10% of boiler volume in second retort . ( 50 litrers in boiler ….. 5 litres in second retort , then I would require 50mls of vinegar .)

Sorry , just trying to sort it out .
Off to bed .

[Bolverk]

To add to what Yummy said

It's not about energy conservation.


your high/low wines fractions have already undergone a single previous distillation from the previous run. So your single and double distillation thought doesn't quit fit.

The point of the mixed fractions is deliberately put the fusel alcohols in the middle of your hearts (normally they would come after).

Thumper 1 (closest to the boiler) with low wines (low tails) will be largely propanol, butanol, and amly alcohols.

Thumper 2 (closest to the condenser) with high wines (high tails) will be ethanol and isobutanol.

Your pushing carboxylic acids over from the boiler and since they have a higher BP than anything else in the rum beer they get trapped in the thumpers and get mixed with those diverse alcohols creating more diverse esters. These ester get smeared throughout your hearts.

[Bolverk]

Thanks Bolverk .
I am just having a few moments of confusion here .

In your final retort use 50% abv high wines add .01% of that volume of that thumper in acedic acid, you can use vinegar but regular vinegar is only 5% acedic so it needs to be the acid that's .01% add about 10% of your acedic volume in sulfuric.

You say use 50% abv high wines in final retort . My High wines are around 72% , so do I dilute them to 50% , and if so with what , water , wash or Dunder ?

You say “add 0.01% of that volume of the Thumper in acedic acid ( I’m assuming you mean Acetic acid )

So , assuming I am following the procedure in Tammus link that would suggest 10% of boiler volume in second retort . ( 50 litrers in boiler ….. 5 litres in second retort , then I would require 50mls of vinegar .)

Sorry , just trying to sort it out .
Off to bed .

If your high wines are 72% you're collecting your high wines too high.

From the 1905 Report on The Experimental Work of the Sugar Station: high wines are collected from 40-60% so your average high wines so they would be around 50%. Your low wines are collected from 30-40% and would average around 35%.

If you're going to dilute them down I'd do it with water vs muck. Too high of a chance of actually carrying over something nasty with the muck that close to the condenser.

Yes on the 50mls but it needs to be 50 mls acedic acid (the water doesn't count) so if you want to use store bought vinegar (typically only 5% acid) but if you're going need a 1000mls of vinegar. Good news is that you need to proof down your high wines to 50% any how. So I'd add the 1L of 5% vinegar to 3L of your 72% high wines then add a little water to hit 50% +/- . Add 5-10mls of sulfuric and let this sit for 24 hours before use.

I hope i explained this well...

[Tammuz]

This might help some of you.
https://www.bostonapothecary.com/confid ... sins-1906/

[Yummyrum]

If your high wines are 72% you're collecting your high wines too high.

From the 1905 Report on The Experimental Work of the Sugar Station: high wines are collected from 40-60% so your average high wines so they would be around 50%. Your low wines are collected from 30-40% and would average around 35%.

Bolverk , That is interesting but also confusing .
I was following this process which seems to use mush higher ABV .
https://www.velier.it/en/rum/6211-an-an ... still.html

Before starting the distillation process, the retorts need to be loaded - small vessels (like Jamaican stills!) connected in sequence to the main still. The first retort contains low wines with an alcoholic strength (ABV) of about 30%, while the second contains high wines with an ABV of about 70% - with subtle differences depending on the distillery. What about quantities? In the first retort, low wines make up 12 to 15% of the still’s total volume, compared to 10% for high wines in the second. Again, quantities may vary, as long as enough space is left in the retorts for the steam to rise.

It then goes on to say this .

The distillation heads are only a small amount and are quickly discarded, while the heart – that is, the rum - flows from an ABV of 89-90% down to 85%, which is where most distilleries make the cut. The heart is followed by high and low wines - most the liquid coming out of the still - with a decreasing alcohol strength. These are sorted by volume, not by ABV, each fraction going into a specific tank.

I found that at around 84-85% mark ( coming off the still) was about the point that tails suddenly made an appearance in a big way and was were I chose to make the cut to collecting High Wines . I would concur with the article about where the hearts cut is

So I am finding it hard to see how they could be collecting High wines starting at 60% . From 84 down to 60 was absolutely rank . There is no way you could collect it as hearts. . And I doubt they would waste it only to start collecting High wines at 60

The other reason I wonder is that the amount of Wines that would be collected seems insufficient to maintain the preload values fir next run .

[Bolverk]

Bolverk , I was following this process which seems to use mush higher ABV .
https://www.velier.it/en/rum/6211-an-an ... still.html

Before starting the distillation process, the retorts need to be loaded - small vessels (like Jamaican stills!) connected in sequence to the main still. The first retort contains low wines with an alcoholic strength (ABV) of about 30%, while the second contains high wines with an ABV of about 70% - with subtle differences depending on the distillery. What about quantities? In the first retort, low wines make up 12 to 15% of the still’s total volume, compared to 10% for high wines in the second. Again, quantities may vary, as long as enough space is left in the retorts for the steam to rise.

Ah, I hadn't seen this one thanks

Well it seems like there is more than 1 way to skin a cat lol

The higher abv in the final retort does make sense for ester creation (water is the death of esters) and since places like Long Pond are using column/pot blend and the double retort is basically just there to create esters for the column rum the output proof would be a non issue as the high ester rum would be proofed down with lower abv rum.

My take is that if you intend to make high ester rum for blending use this high abv in the final retort. If your goal is to make a drinkable rum off the still use the lower (50% abv) in the final retort.

Edit to add:
I think we all can agree that pulling a spirit intended to have flavor off the still at too high of an abv is a bad idea because to proof it down you end up diluting your flavor. Pulling hearts off at 85% and diluting that to down to 50% (after aging etc) you've diluted you flavor (20%) by more than 100%.

[Yummyrum]

Cool , yeah thanks for the clarification on the Acids too .

I can get Concentrated Glacial Acetic acid from work .Altjough I’d prefer to use cane vinegar if I could find it .

[Bolverk]

Cool , yeah thanks for the clarification on the Acids too .

I can get Concentrated Glacial Acetic acid from work .Altjough I’d prefer to use cane vinegar if I could find it .

Of course!

I tried Steen brand cane vinegar, some Asian brand, apple cider vinegar, malt vinegar, distilled white, industrial 75% vinegar, and glacial acedic... and honestly I cant taste any of the base liquid coming over. Pick what's cheap lol

[Yummyrum]

I think we all can agree that pulling a spirit intended to have flavor off the still at too high of an abv is a bad idea because to proof it down you end up diluting your flavor. Pulling hearts off at 85% and diluting that to down to 50% (after aging etc) you've diluted you flavor (20%) by more than 100%.

True , but many Home distillers use Plated stills that are pulling 92 % and happy to dilute .

On the point of High ABV , I have been wondering about barrel strength .
Most Rum is barrelled at 80% but I see some of the Jamaican Rum is even higher .
I have been barreling my Rum at 80% in an ex bourbon barrel similar to what the Jamaican's would have used .

Everything you read on HD forum says yo barrel everything at around 60-65% ti avoid pulling tanins and stuff from the barrel .
It is like one of those stories that keeps getting told . So why is it that Rum is barrelled at a higher strength commercially and never tastes woody

[shadylane]

I've got almost no experience making Rum with dual thumpers. But here's what I'm thinking.
It appears to be a one run and done process, with the thumpers primed with what they would have eventually had in them.
Once the process is underway, the tails and heads AKA (low and highwines) from the run are recycled back to the appropriate thumper.
My question is are the Thumpers emptied or partially drained before the addition of the low and highwines?
If they are is the alcohol cycled all the way back to the boiler?

[Bolverk]

Everything you read on HD forum says yo barrel everything at around 60-65% ti avoid pulling tanins and stuff from the barrel .
It is like one of those stories that keeps getting told . So why is it that Rum is barrelled at a higher strength commercially and never tastes woody

Thats part of if for sure, but i think it has more to do with that fact that rum typically goes into a barrel after the majority of the tannins have already been extracted by the whiskey what was in there first. I think the higher high entry proof is to get the alcohol soluble compounds in the wood that were missed at the lower entry of the whiskey.

[Bolverk]

I've got almost no experience making Rum with dual thumpers. But here's what I'm thinking.
It appears to be a one run and done process, with the thumpers primed with what they would have eventually had in them.
Once the process is underway, the tails and heads AKA (low and highwines) from the run are recycled back to the appropriate thumper.
My question is are the Thumpers emptied or partially drained before the addition of the low and highwines?
If they are is the alcohol cycled all the way back to the boiler?

No, the lees (clear thumper stillage) is almost totally devoid of any alchohol... if you run out the tails on your run.

In the cousins process, the lees for 10 runs are saved up, calcified, dehydrated, and used as the acid in the final retort for a single high ester rum that is used for blending.

[Yummyrum]

Everything you read on HD forum says yo barrel everything at around 60-65% ti avoid pulling tanins and stuff from the barrel .
It is like one of those stories that keeps getting told . So why is it that Rum is barrelled at a higher strength commercially and never tastes woody

Thats part of if for sure, but i think it has more to do with that fact that rum typically goes into a barrel after the majority of the tannins have already been extracted by the whiskey what was in there first. I think the higher high entry proof is to get the alcohol soluble compounds in the wood that were missed at the lower entry of the whiskey.

That does make a lot of sense Bolverk . I guess the Scotts also use ex bourbon barrels but they use 65% ish because that just happens to be double Pot still strength .