Came across some 1" tubing in my uncles shop

[00Buck]

Ive been in the process of getting a new worm condenser put together and we found about 35 foot of 1" copper coil in my uncles old shop. That was almost like my answer was handed to me there, but before I rig that up to run would 35 foot of 1" be too much for a 20 gallon rig? Right now all I have is 10 ft of 3/8 for my old 5 gal set up but I had a 20 gal built for me so Im upgrading the worm to work better with the bigger pot size.

Also I know somebody will tell me a liebeg is the way to go but where I am and how I do it continuous flowing water wont be available due to the circumstances.

[acfixer69]

The 1" will work fine. Keep in mine that the power put into the boiler will determine the condenser requirements, not the size of the boiler.

[00Buck]

The 1" will work fine. Keep in mine that the power put into the boiler will determine the condenser requirements, not the size of the boiler.

Ive always read about that on forums and sites. I run my rig on a propane burner thats a turkey fryer basically. I dont know the BTUs or anything. Ive always just cranked it up and adjusted the heat when the liquid started coming. Id kick it back to a fast drip on a 5 gal. I figure on my 20 Ill do a thin stream. But I dont know how all that translates into the power output rules

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

The 1" will work fine. Keep in mine that the power put into the boiler will determine the condenser requirements, not the size of the boiler.

Ive always read about that on forums and sites. I run my rig on a propane burner thats a turkey fryer basically. I dont know the BTUs or anything. Ive always just cranked it up and adjusted the heat when the liquid started coming. Id kick it back to a fast drip on a 5 gal. I figure on my 20 Ill do a thin stream. But I dont know how all that translates into the power output rules

That's gonna run about 30k to 60k BTUs, depending on your burner and the regulator pressure. That equates to 8700 to 17,500 watts.


Rusty

[00Buck]

The 1" will work fine. Keep in mine that the power put into the boiler will determine the condenser requirements, not the size of the boiler.

Ive always read about that on forums and sites. I run my rig on a propane burner thats a turkey fryer basically. I dont know the BTUs or anything. Ive always just cranked it up and adjusted the heat when the liquid started coming. Id kick it back to a fast drip on a 5 gal. I figure on my 20 Ill do a thin stream. But I dont know how all that translates into the power output rules

That's gonna run about 30k to 60k BTUs, depending on your burner and the regulator pressure. That equates to 8700 to 17,500 watts.


Rusty

Thats good to know I just dont know how to apply that to the "formula". I learned real old school. Build a fire and move the wood closer or further to make it run faster or slower. Im glad I found this site but man it makes me realize how much there really is to it. I originally came to make sure a certain type or copper would work and I skimmed alot and its like a damn chemistry and shop class around here

[SW_Shiner]

The rabbit hole is deep if you feel like going down it. But its also a treasure trove of information.

[00Buck]

The rabbit hole is deep if you feel like going down it. But its also a treasure trove of information.

It dang sure is. I tried searching stuff up about all this but I dont see a clear answer on it. Can somebody real easy like explain to be the relationship of the power to the work diameter? Im assuming its better to be on the bigger end cause I do know if that cooling tub aint big enough you gotta pump water in. Been there. But I also know if the tub is bigger than how much youre cookin youll be good to leave it alone. Just aint sure where the diameter fits in

[SW_Shiner]

Yea, someone thats been here a bit longer might have an answer on that. Like a lot of people, ive used leibigs and shotguns for 10+ years due to the ease of use.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Thats good to know I just dont know how to apply that to the "formula". I learned real old school. Build a fire and move the wood closer or further to make it run faster or slower. Im glad I found this site but man it makes me realize how much there really is to it. I originally came to make sure a certain type or copper would work and I skimmed alot and its like a damn chemistry and shop class around here

I know, isn't it great!

More experienced minds will correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with the way you're doing it if you're achieving the results you want. Granted I'm just starting, but I've run everything so far with propane. Get 'er running, then adjust to the speed of takeoff you need. That's not going to change with the larger pot, just take a little longer with the larger volume of wash to start running. I actually start off different than you, I start off really low and slow and increase the heat (or decrease) once I start running. I've only run sugar wash and rum so far, but I haven't always cleared them completely either, so slow works best for me.

Rusty

[MooseMan]

It dang sure is. I tried searching stuff up about all this but I dont see a clear answer on it. Can somebody real easy like explain to be the relationship of the power to the work diameter? Im assuming its better to be on the bigger end cause I do know if that cooling tub aint big enough you gotta pump water in. Been there. But I also know if the tub is bigger than how much youre cookin youll be good to leave it alone. Just aint sure where the diameter fits in

If I were in your shoes Buck, I'd work with what I've got.
I reckon you will be good with that much copper worm, even using a much bigger boiler pot than you have.
Just make sure your vessel for the worm is as big as you can go, make sure you shape the worm the best you can, and if it struggles, maybe stir the water now and then when running.

[Salt Must Flow]

The smaller diameter of tube, the faster the vapor must travel through it. A larger diameter tube has a larger volume so the vapor travels slower through it.

The water at the top of the Flake Stand will get warmer first because heat rises and the top is where the vapor is first introduced. The water at the bottom will remain cool much longer. If the Flake Stand needs more water, it's my understanding that you could use a drop tube or just have a port near the bottom to introduce cold water. I'd have an overflow port near the top for the hot water to exit. Most recommend to just maintain a temperature gradient within the Flake Stand. Worst case is the worm could start huffing if you have too much cold water near the top.

[00Buck]

The smaller diameter of tube, the faster the vapor must travel through it. A larger diameter tube has a larger volume so the vapor travels slower through it.

The water at the top of the Flake Stand will get warmer first because heat rises and the top is where the vapor is first introduced. The water at the bottom will remain cool much longer. If the Flake Stand needs more water, it's my understanding that you could use a drop tube or just have a port near the bottom to introduce cold water. I'd have an overflow port near the top for the hot water to exit. Most recommend to just maintain a temperature gradient within the Flake Stand. Worst case is the worm could start huffing if you have too much cold water near the top.

I gotcha Salt. Ive been running a flake stand for years. But Ive always had a smaller pot. Now that Im moving up to 20 gallon I wanted to make sure about that 1 inch. I had planned on buying some 1/2 or 3/4 but since I stumbled on this Id rather just to use this. I just didnt know if there was any downside to using something that size on a rig as small as mine. I woulda guessed a 1" diameter worm would be more for that 50+ gallon mark

[greggn]

Ive been running a flake stand for years. But Ive always had a smaller pot. Now that Im moving up to 20 gallon I wanted to make sure about that 1 inch.

So, if you already have a worm and flake stand I'd suggest you use that as a test. If it works, it works and no need for a new worm. Personally, I'd rather save 1" for another project since copper is getting more expensive and harder and harder to find in larger sizes.

[acfixer69]

The smaller diameter of tube, the faster the vapor must travel through it. A larger diameter tube has a larger volume so the vapor travels slower through it.

The water at the top of the Flake Stand will get warmer first because heat rises and the top is where the vapor is first introduced. The water at the bottom will remain cool much longer. If the Flake Stand needs more water, it's my understanding that you could use a drop tube or just have a port near the bottom to introduce cold water. I'd have an overflow port near the top for the hot water to exit. Most recommend to just maintain a temperature gradient within the Flake Stand. Worst case is the worm could start huffing if you have too much cold water near the top.

I gotcha Salt. Ive been running a flake stand for years. But Ive always had a smaller pot. Now that Im moving up to 20 gallon I wanted to make sure about that 1 inch. I had planned on buying some 1/2 or 3/4 but since I stumbled on this Id rather just to use this. I just didnt know if there was any downside to using something that size on a rig as small as mine. I woulda guessed a 1" diameter worm would be more for that 50+ gallon mark

It's the power in that determines the diameter. We all here use 3/8 as a minimum for fear of blockage not a reflection of boiler size. Diameter = speed and power in will determine speed.

[00Buck]

The smaller diameter of tube, the faster the vapor must travel through it. A larger diameter tube has a larger volume so the vapor travels slower through it.

The water at the top of the Flake Stand will get warmer first because heat rises and the top is where the vapor is first introduced. The water at the bottom will remain cool much longer. If the Flake Stand needs more water, it's my understanding that you could use a drop tube or just have a port near the bottom to introduce cold water. I'd have an overflow port near the top for the hot water to exit. Most recommend to just maintain a temperature gradient within the Flake Stand. Worst case is the worm could start huffing if you have too much cold water near the top.

I gotcha Salt. Ive been running a flake stand for years. But Ive always had a smaller pot. Now that Im moving up to 20 gallon I wanted to make sure about that 1 inch. I had planned on buying some 1/2 or 3/4 but since I stumbled on this Id rather just to use this. I just didnt know if there was any downside to using something that size on a rig as small as mine. I woulda guessed a 1" diameter worm would be more for that 50+ gallon mark

It's the power in that determines the diameter. We all here use 3/8 as a minimum for fear of blockage not a reflection of boiler size. Diameter = speed and power in will determine speed.

Thats the part that keeps tripping me up the "power" part. I realize different burners and heat sources kick out more but I reckon the part I dont get is more btu= get a bigger diameter? And would there be a good target for BTUs on a 20 gallon pot still? Ive ran a 5 so long that Im making sure I have enough beef behind everything for the upgrade

[Salt Must Flow]

The smaller diameter of tube, the faster the vapor must travel through it. A larger diameter tube has a larger volume so the vapor travels slower through it.

The water at the top of the Flake Stand will get warmer first because heat rises and the top is where the vapor is first introduced. The water at the bottom will remain cool much longer. If the Flake Stand needs more water, it's my understanding that you could use a drop tube or just have a port near the bottom to introduce cold water. I'd have an overflow port near the top for the hot water to exit. Most recommend to just maintain a temperature gradient within the Flake Stand. Worst case is the worm could start huffing if you have too much cold water near the top.

I gotcha Salt. Ive been running a flake stand for years. But Ive always had a smaller pot. Now that Im moving up to 20 gallon I wanted to make sure about that 1 inch. I had planned on buying some 1/2 or 3/4 but since I stumbled on this Id rather just to use this. I just didnt know if there was any downside to using something that size on a rig as small as mine. I woulda guessed a 1" diameter worm would be more for that 50+ gallon mark

In my experience an over-sized product condenser is not an issue at all. I use a shotgun condenser that is WAY overkill during spirit runs with my reflux column and I like it. For one thing it ensures that the exiting product is as cool as can be with the input water temperature. I've seen some members here with Liebig Condensers nearly 10' long or so. I'm actually in the middle of building a ridiculous size 3" shotgun condenser with 56' of 1/2" OD copper pipe inside for stripping runs. An over-sized product condenser also allows you room to grow/expand with increased power input in the future whether you end up doing so or not.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

If your running propane on a turkey fryer you have more power than you need for a 20 gallon pot. I run a 15.5 keg and have never run anything close to wide open on anything but a water run. This is what a Bayou Classic 50k looks like wide open at night.

It's gonna take longer to heat up just because of the volume and the amount of heat you can add at the beginning is going to depend on how clear you make your ferment. You can scorch with propane easily. I haven't run a bunch yet, just 12 runs total, but that's my experience with propane so far.

Rusty

[Yummyrum]

Say you have 20gal to strip .
Ignoring heatup time .

If you run at say 2kw , it will take you around 8hrs to strip it .
If you run it at 4kw , it will take you around 4 hours to strip it .
If you run it at 8kw , it will take you around 2 hours to strip it .

In all cases , it will take the same amount of water to condense the vapour . So how much power you use does not really alter how much water you’ll need to get the job done .

In all cases , at the end of the stripping run , the volume of cooling water will have heated up by the same amount .( ignoring that it will naturally cool down over time )

So what is more important than how much power you use , is how big the boiler charge is . That determines how much water you will need to get the job done .How much power you use just changes how long it takes .

In reality you will need a barrel of water that is a minimum of 2x the boiler charge . Three times would be better

So if you are say stripping a 20gal wash , then a worm in a 40-50 gal barrel of water would get the job done .

[00Buck]

Say you have 20gal to strip .
Ignoring heatup time .

If you run at say 2kw , it will take you around 8hrs to strip it .
If you run it at 4kw , it will take you around 4 hours to strip it .
If you run it at 8kw , it will take you around 2 hours to strip it .

In all cases , it will take the same amount of water to condense the vapour . So how much power you use does not really alter how much water you’ll need to get the job done .

In all cases , at the end of the stripping run , the volume of cooling water will have heated up by the same amount .( ignoring that it will naturally cool down over time )

So what is more important than how much power you use , is how big the boiler charge is . That determines how much water you will need to get the job done .How much power you use just changes how long it takes .

In reality you will need a barrel of water that is a minimum of 2x the boiler charge . Three times would be better

So if you are say stripping a 20gal wash , then a worm in a 40-50 gal barrel of water would get the job done .

See I never had it told to me like that. I just knew from my learning thru passing it down that I need about twice as big a cooling tub than my pot. Now as far as the worm diameter goes I understand a minimum size to avoid blockage. But I dont know the science of what happens as the diameter gets bigger

[Yummyrum]

I see two things that come to play .
First is the physical consideration .
When it comes to a worm , you got to be able to make a coil tight enough that will fit in your barrel ( Flake stand ) .
Thats no problems with 3/8 “ , 1/2” or 3/4” . Bending 1” into a coil that will fit in a barrel sounds hard but I recon you could still do it.
I have know idea how you could do it with 2” LOL.

The second thing is the Boiler Power .
This is where size matters . More power ( heat under the boiler ) means more vapour . Pushing “steam” through a pipe .
The more vapour , the faster it travels through the same size pipe .

The vapour needs to travel slow enough so that it can give up its heat to the copper wall and condense . It’s called dwell time . If it shoots through too fast , it doesn’t have enough time transfer the heat and condense .
There becomes a limit to how much vapour you can send through a condenser of given size before it can no longer get all the heat out and condense before it reaches the end .

So logic would suggest that the larger the size of the condenser pipe ,the better , and the slower the vapour flows through it . That would mean long dwell time .

But , there is another problem . If the size of the condenser pipe is too large for the amount of vapour , then there is a problem where the vapour in the middle of the pipe doesn’t touch the sides and get to condense .

Now one good thing with a worm is that the vapour is swirling around so there is turbulence that will stop this happening like it would in a straight condenser like a Liebig .

So I have an 80litre boiler ( 75 us gal) if I fill it up to about 3/4 full ( thats about 15 us gal and run it through my 6‘ long 3/4 “ ( 1” shell) liebig , It will have no trouble handling 6kw of power .That was the equivalent of me using a gas burner and high pressure regulator and pushing it so flames were starting to come uo the sides . And that would be stripping at about 12litres/hour .

I have absolutely no hesitations that a 35’ long 1” worm will be a limiting factor for anything that we would consider in a home distilling setup .
As you suggest , It would easily handle a 50gal boiler …. But…. On Home Distiller Forum , we say 30gal is as big as we want to hear about .

I’m sure , if it was 10’ long it would still work above and beyond on a 20gal boiler

And we want to see pictures

[Steve Broady]

But I dont know the science of what happens as the diameter gets bigger

I think about it like this. The boiler is pushing vapor up and out. The more heat you put in, the more vapor you get out. Imagine trying to blow throw a soda straw vs. through a stove pipe. You can blow the same amount of air, but it’s got to move a lot faster thought that tiny little straw. Condenser diameter is the same thing. The bigger it is, the slower the vapor goes for any given power input.

Basically, I think of it like this:
Boiler volume - Run Time (more charge takes more time)
Burner power - Run Speed (the same charge goes faster)
Condenser diameter - Vapor speed (bigger tubes flow slower for the same burner)
Condenser length - Cooling Power (longer can condense more)

It’s a LOT more complicated than that, but that’s my mental shorthand for a first pass when thinking about things.

As far as the diameter goes, it needs to be bigger enough to not clog up, and then big enough to make sure the vapor has time to cool off before it shoots out the end. Any bigger is just wasted material and space, but it won’t hurt anything.

[00Buck]

I see two things that come to play .
First is the physical consideration .
When it comes to a worm , you got to be able to make a coil tight enough that will fit in your barrel ( Flake stand ) .
Thats no problems with 3/8 “ , 1/2” or 3/4” . Bending 1” into a coil that will fit in a barrel sounds hard but I recon you could still do it.
I have know idea how you could do it with 2” LOL.

The second thing is the Boiler Power .
This is where size matters . More power ( heat under the boiler ) means more vapour . Pushing “steam” through a pipe .
The more vapour , the faster it travels through the same size pipe .

The vapour needs to travel slow enough so that it can give up its heat to the copper wall and condense . It’s called dwell time . If it shoots through too fast , it doesn’t have enough time transfer the heat and condense .
There becomes a limit to how much vapour you can send through a condenser of given size before it can no longer get all the heat out and condense before it reaches the end .

So logic would suggest that the larger the size of the condenser pipe ,the better , and the slower the vapour flows through it . That would mean long dwell time .

But , there is another problem . If the size of the condenser pipe is too large for the amount of vapour , then there is a problem where the vapour in the middle of the pipe doesn’t touch the sides and get to condense .

Now one good thing with a worm is that the vapour is swirling around so there is turbulence that will stop this happening like it would in a straight condenser like a Liebig .

So I have an 80litre boiler ( 75 us gal) if I fill it up to about 3/4 full ( thats about 15 us gal and run it through my 6‘ long 3/4 “ ( 1” shell) liebig , It will have no trouble handling 6kw of power .That was the equivalent of me using a gas burner and high pressure regulator and pushing it so flames were starting to come uo the sides . And that would be stripping at about 12litres/hour .

I have absolutely no hesitations that a 35’ long 1” worm will be a limiting factor for anything that we would consider in a home distilling setup .
As you suggest , It would easily handle a 50gal boiler …. But…. On Home Distiller Forum , we say 30gal is as big as we want to hear about .

I’m sure , if it was 10’ long it would still work above and beyond on a 20gal boiler

And we want to see pictures

Now this right here was exactly what I needed to understand all this. Man thank you. All the learning Ive ever had was my old pawpaw and it was just fire in a furnace and a worm in a barrel with a hose from a branch. As Ive been doing this on my own at home its been that 5gal pot on a portable propane camp grill for heat.

After reading what you wrote me Im considering hanging on to that 1" for other things and maybe just pumping up to 1/2" or 3/4" JUST to avoid any potential issue like you mentioned.

Thank you so much for that explanation. I have plenty of experience catching some drink but its been something Ive just done on a tiny rig. So moving up made me question alot of things and Im glad I can get answers somewhere

[shadylane]

Ive been in the process of getting a new worm condenser put together and we found about 35 foot of 1" copper coil in my uncles old shop. That was almost like my answer was handed to me there, but before I rig that up to run would 35 foot of 1" be too much for a 20 gallon rig? Right now all I have is 10 ft of 3/8 for my old 5 gal set up but I had a 20 gal built for me so Im upgrading the worm to work better with the bigger pot size.

The only reason 35 foot of 1" copper would be too long is if it won't fit inside the cooling water barrel.
On a side note, often soft drawn copper tubing is measured by the outer diameter, in other words 1" fittings might not fit onto the soft 1" tube. I'd cut off a short piece of the tube and go to the plumbing section of lowes or some other box store and see what fits.

[00Buck]

Ive been in the process of getting a new worm condenser put together and we found about 35 foot of 1" copper coil in my uncles old shop. That was almost like my answer was handed to me there, but before I rig that up to run would 35 foot of 1" be too much for a 20 gallon rig? Right now all I have is 10 ft of 3/8 for my old 5 gal set up but I had a 20 gal built for me so Im upgrading the worm to work better with the bigger pot size.

I wasnt really worried about the length I was worried about the diameter.

The only reason 35 foot of 1" copper would be too long is if it won't fit inside the cooling water barrel.
On a side note, often soft drawn copper tubing is measured by the outer diameter, in other words 1" fittings might not fit onto the soft 1" tube. I'd cut off a short piece of the tube and go to the plumbing section of lowes or some other box store and see what fits.

[00Buck]

Ive been in the process of getting a new worm condenser put together and we found about 35 foot of 1" copper coil in my uncles old shop. That was almost like my answer was handed to me there, but before I rig that up to run would 35 foot of 1" be too much for a 20 gallon rig? Right now all I have is 10 ft of 3/8 for my old 5 gal set up but I had a 20 gal built for me so Im upgrading the worm to work better with the bigger pot size.

The only reason 35 foot of 1" copper would be too long is if it won't fit inside the cooling water barrel.
On a side note, often soft drawn copper tubing is measured by the outer diameter, in other words 1" fittings might not fit onto the soft 1" tube. I'd cut off a short piece of the tube and go to the plumbing section of lowes or some other box store and see what fits.

I wasnt really worried about the length I was worried about the diameter.

[shadylane]

I wasnt really worried about the length I was worried about the diameter.

Bigger is better, unless the tube diameter is so big the coil can't be wound tight enough to fit in the cooling barrel.
I think 1" is going to be just right for what you want.

[Yummyrum]

I wasnt really worried about the length I was worried about the diameter.

Bigger is better, unless the tube diameter is so big the coil can't be wound tight enough to fit in the cooling barrel.
I think 1" is going to be just right for what you want.

I totally agree shady . If I could get my hands on a coil of 1” , I’d use it as a worm no problems .