? on cuts or blending, maybe both?

[sadie33]

I have a ? but don't know how to ask it so I hope you can figure out what I'm asking.
I did a spirit run on 5 gal of HBB (4 gal low wines and 1 gal of whiskey feints)

When I do my cuts I have a gallon "keeps" jar. I have a gallon feints jar. If I ? a jar I put it off to the side for later. I have read, and others have suggested, making little samples to see if I like it with a certain jar added.

So here's where I get lost or ? the process. Say I have 8 jars added to my keeps jug and I want to know if I should add jar #10, we'll say. I take out a bit of my keeps jar and add a bit of jar #10 and make a sample. How do I do the ratio? The ratio in my sample has to be the same in my jug and I don't know how to do that...I hope y'all understand what I'm asking.

[Steve Broady]

I think I understand your question. How do you ensure that the ratio of your sample is the same as the ratio of the whole batch?

Let’s say you have 1000 milliliters of hearts and 50 ml of questionable. To keep the same ratio, you could pull a 10 ml (1/100 of the total) sample of the hearts and 0.5 ml of the questionable. Same relative ratio as the whole batch.

[bilgriss]

I think people do this in different ways, and it's more of figuring out what works for you than a single procedure. However, in theory if you have eight jars and are considering adding one, to figure the matching ratio for tasting this way, you could use a dropper. In your case there are eight keeper jars and one potential jar, so you could add 8 drops from the keepers for each one from the #10 jar, and get a sample at that ratio. You also don't have to add the entire jar, so you could try 16 drops to one to simulate a half jar.

I do something like this but it's less scientific. I might try a teaspoon of each for a test, dilute and see what I think, and try again with a smaller amount on the tip of the spoon and repeat, just to sort of get an idea of how it works at different strengths. Then I usually just wing it based on instinct. Usually works; sometimes I make a bad choice. Time and wood usually still makes me happy.

Good luck!

[jonnys_spirit]

You can measure all the quantities as suggested and use drops or milliliters to make up a potential blend. You can also eyeball it and make a few different test blends that are about close enough to the same potential ratios. I like to think in orders of magnitude like 1:1, 1:10, 1:100 and estimate... One questionable jar going into your hearts cut might be in the 1:10 range give or take a bit either way but probably close enough to get an idea of whether you'll like it... If 1:1 isn't agreeable try 1:10 before meeting somewhere in the middle just to size up appreciable differences..

I like to make up maybe a 75-150ml sample proofed to somewhere in the 35-45%abv range and sip on that for the evening and see how I feel about it in the morning... I'll do that with samples from different jars over multiple sessions and take some notes... Throw caution to the wind and start committing to some cuts and perhaps continuing sampling sessions if I have any more jars that I haven't added in yet that I'm on the fence about...

If I know that I'm going to age it for a good year then i'll cut it a little wider. If i'm drinking early or white I'll make a more narrow cut.

Different runs probably end up with different profiles and age out differently and further blending/aging of the most aged product generally turns out better IMO - and based on that product the new make I'm making decisions on may get either a wider or more narrow cut without too much worry since I know next batch can be different and wouldn't be blended for maybe a year or whatever or blended little by little in a solera fashion....

Recycling the feints like you're doing allows you to not waste any and save feints for that next spirit run batch. Blending of multiple runs and oak treatments or a solera style approach also allows you to take more risks in your cuts to incorporate over time as well as allowing a more conservative cuts approach as you blend product into your "finishing vessel" and continue to test each subsequent vessel...

You can also thrown some oak into a questionable "side-jar".. Maybe even excess oak... And decide to blend some of that in later or eventually dump it back into the feints jug which hopefully also might have some charred/toasted oak...

Hope that helps and cheers!
-j

[sadie33]

Thank you guys!! That is all exactly what I was looking for. I am doing my cuts tonight. This will be my biggest batch. I have my gallon keg soaking and getting ready!!
thanks again!!

[subbrew]

I found that these help in getting the correct size samples https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07XM2VC ... 8bc37c5889

[Steve Broady]

I’ll be honest. I usually just eyeball it. My philosophy is that if I at least get it somewhere in the right ballpark, it’s enough to tell me if I made my product better or worse.

[NZChris]

I use a small dipper. 1 dip from each jar. If a container has several jars worth in it, I take that many dips from it. I estimate how many dips of water to add to dilute it down to around 35%.

Starting with the middle jars that obviously have no faults, I make a sample and taste it.

I then alternately add to the sample with dips from the jars at either end, adding dips of water as needed.

If a jar improves the flavor, it is hearts.

If a jar spoils the flavor it is heads or tails.

[JustinNZ]

All of the above.. but I’ll put a bit more of the “maybe” jar or jars into the test blend with the hearts than strictly proportional, just to be super confident the effect is good.

Making test blends is really cool. I’ve only just been converted and I wish I had earlier.

[NZChris]

Make a mistake with adding a "maybe" jar and you'll regret it until it's all drunk or redistilled. I do cuts, a jar is either in or out. The heads and tails jars are not lost, they are used for another purpose, so there is no point in being greedy with them.

[Yummyrum]

Hi Sadie
Sounds like you got this

But I’ll just add incase others are reading .

So you have your safe choice . Thats the tight hearts cut .

In this case I have 8 jars . When you want to add extra jars to test in a blend , you take 8 measured amounts , droppers , drops , what ever , and add one measured amount from each jar you want to test . Then add equal amounts of water at a minimum and taste .

[sadie33]

Thanks Yummyrum!! that's just about what my counter looked like last night!! I got a craft beer tasting set for Christmas (I don't drink beer), but I used it for making my blends and it worked perfect. This was the first time I tried blends. I usually smell/taste a jar and if I like it I keep it, and if I don't it gets tossed to feints. This time I was able to use my craft cups to make blends. I started with all my hearts as my base then used the other 3 cups for different blends. It was so fun!!
I ended up with a little over a gallon. I tested with the Proof and Tralles and the total was 70%. Some one mentioned that you can add a questionable jar if you have more time to age so I added 1 jar that I wasn't sure about; it was sweet but maybe had a little hint of tails at the end. I plan on aging for 2 years. Now I have to go look at the chart to find out what proof I want to oak on. This will be my first gallon oak keg!! I'm excited to see what the difference will be between the 2L and the gallon.

[Bushman]

Great thread and I like the answers given. On a side note not exactly to your question you asked but my wife buys sauce jars that have measurements on the side (2 oz, 4 oz, 6 oz, ect) and I save these jars and use them when collecting my product.

[sadie33]

I was looking for the chart that gives you the flavors that will come with different %s, but I think I was confused with the baking temp of the wood that gives different flavors. I found this in an old thread:

"50% to 65% is a good ranger. At the lower end 50% to 55% you will get the sweeter flavors out of the wood. Vanillas and caramels. 60% to 65% you will get the sharper or spicyer flavors. Peppery type flavors."

I am looking for a sweeter, vanilla/caramel flavor so I'm thinking 55%?

[sadie33]

well, I made the mistake of calling my keg a gallon, when it was really 5 Liters. It matters I did not have enough to fill it, luckily I had 5 cups of my HBB left from 6/29/23 (it was aging in glass with no oak). That put me at full with nothing left for topping off. I guess I will be making a few more mashes of HBB. Nothing wrong with that

[Saltbush Bill]

Having whitedog spare to top up your barrel will be a bonus.
My guess is, once it's aged a bit in the barrel and you like the result your going to need to top up the barrel pretty often.

[NZChris]

There are charts around that show what comes over during a distillation. They always show curves, some VOCs starting high and finishing low, some starting low and finishing high, heads hearts and tails all containing the same VOCs but the concentrations changing during the run. Too much of one will spoil your drink, but without enough of it you may be disappointed by the lack of flavor.

Our job is to choose a cut that we like out of the middle section.

I'm not a fan of using part jars in heart blends. If you have to use part jars to round out the flavor of your heart cut, I reckon your cut jars should have been smaller so that you used more jars.

[Yummyrum]

I'm not a fan of using part jars in heart blends. If you have to use part jars to round out the flavor of your heart cut, I reckon your cut jars should have been smaller so that you used more jars.

+1

[sadie33]

There are charts around that show what comes over during a distillation. They always show curves, some VOCs starting high and finishing low, some starting low and finishing high, heads hearts and tails all containing the same VOCs but the concentrations changing during the run. Too much of one will spoil your drink, but without enough of it you may be disappointed by the lack of flavor. What is VOCs?

Our job is to choose a cut that we like out of the middle section. That is what I did. I am still very new. As it was coming off the still Iwas tasting/smelling and when I thought I was through heads, I switched to larger jars and collected 600ml. I kept tasing/smelling and when I thought the tails were coming, I went back to smaller jars. When I did my cuts, I was quite surprised to see how close I came. My large jars were #s 4-9 and I kept 4-9. Jar 10 was pretty close to hearts and I liked it so I kept it. I tossed the rest 11-15 to feints.

I'm not a fan of using part jars in heart blends. If you have to use part jars to round out the flavor of your heart cut, I reckon your cut jars should have been smaller so that you used more jars.

[NZChris]

Volatile organic compounds. It's what distilling is all about.

[shadylane]

Volatile organic compounds. It's what distilling is all about.

And, they change during aging so you need to make a questimation as what makes the cut based future changes.
A back to the future flux capacitor would help.

[Yummyrum]

A back to the future flux capacitor would help.

Can I modify my reflux condenser to do it

[NZChris]

I sometimes use ideas from here to get a preview of what to expect.

viewtopic.php?t=55301

[NZChris]

Volatile organic compounds. It's what distilling is all about.

And, they change during aging so you need to make a questimation as what makes the cut based future changes.
A back to the future flux capacitor would help.

What you consider to be 'aged' has a bearing on that too. Early and late take that might be impressive in a rum in five or so years might not make a pleasant drink a year from now.