oakstills bain-marie

[The Booze Pipe]

First thing is to get it up and running... I'm not sure if they built it to the specs I requested... thicker 3mm walls, and a 1bar PRV so I can run steam pressure in the jacket. They sent only a .02mpa relief valve... soooo

"and comes with a 4.25psi (.03MPa) PRV "

I'd run it with the .02mpa PRV to see if it's too slow.
Does the pot have a agitator?

No I didn't order the agitator. 3psi/.02mpa I think gets to 212f..? I feel like that might be a litte slow. Especially since this was intended to be a stripping machine.

[shadylane]

It's definitely going to slow down during the tail end of the run. 3psi is around 220'F

[danmiz]

I have a similar boiler from oakstills. I have the 26 gallon pot belly copper top. Had it about a year and have run it with water in the jacket and Propylene glycol in the jacket. I run 11k watts to heat it up in about an hour. I never got over 4 PSI on my PRV. I think 7 PSI is 1/2 bar. I have that thing running liked a raped ape for heat up and never got close to 7 PSI. I do feel more comfortable with the Propylene glycol than water in it though.

[The Booze Pipe]

It's definitely going to slow down during the tail end of the run. 3psi is around 220'F

It was confirmed that the boiler is built to spec, and able to handle 1 bar pressure! Of course I won't run that much, just wanted it to be more sturdy. This will also help stripping down to about 10 or less percent.

[The Booze Pipe]

I have a similar boiler from oakstills. I have the 26 gallon pot belly copper top. Had it about a year and have run it with water in the jacket and Propylene glycol in the jacket. I run 11k watts to heat it up in about an hour. I never got over 4 PSI on my PRV. I think 7 PSI is 1/2 bar. I have that thing running liked a raped ape for heat up and never got close to 7 PSI. I do feel more comfortable with the Propylene glycol than water in it though.

What exactly did you find to be different, and better about the glycol? The PRV I recieved is rated for just 2 or 3 PSI. but the boiler is built to handle up to 14 psi. Did you find much of a learning curve using this style of boiler? I'm slightly intimidated!

[shadylane]

Water vs glycol
Water boils and creates steam under pressure.
Glycol just gets hot and transfers energy without creating pressure.

Steam has a better throttle response, when the power is turned off the elements cool instantly and no more steam is made.
Hot Glycol takes much longer to cool down.

[The Booze Pipe]

Water vs glycol
Water boils and creates steam under pressure.
Glycol just gets hot and transfers energy without creating pressure.

Steam has a better throttle response, when the power is turned off the elements cool instantly and no more steam is made.
Hot Glycol takes much longer to cool down.

I remember reading that in my research. I planned on running with steam. The PRV Oakstills sent is adustable... kinda nifty.

[The Booze Pipe]

A couple more things to figure out is what to put in this .75" npt port. Also, I have no idea how to operate these two blue valves on the siteglass. If anyone has some insight on that it would be helpful! I've also reached out to Oakstills with these questions

[shadylane]

Do's the 3/4" fitting only go into the jacket or do's it go all the way into the kettle?
Either way it's probably where a thermometer goes.
As to the valves both of them need to be open for the level glass to work and quickly closed if glass gets broken.

[The Booze Pipe]

Do's the 3/4" fitting only go into the jacket or do's it go all the way into the kettle?
Either way it's probably where a thermometer goes.
As to the valves both of them need to be open for the level glass to work and quickly closed if glass gets broken.

I'm getting a thermowell for a PID probe (built into the power controlller box) it only reaches into the jacket.

I figured that valve operation was something way too simple.

[shadylane]

I'm getting a thermowell for a PID probe (built into the power controlller box)

I'm curious how well a PID will work for controlling steam production.

[Salt Must Flow]

Perhaps he just meant a RTD Sensor which is commonly used for both PIDs and some variable power controllers.

If he intends to mash and strip within this boiler, wouldn't a PID be useful for mashing?

[zach]

Water vs glycol
Water boils and creates steam under pressure.
Glycol just gets hot and transfers energy without creating pressure.

Glycol increases the temperature of the boiling point of the steam. The jacketed kettle shown in this thread with glycol still works like steam in jacket with the phase change being the primary mode of the heat transfer. Glycol will have lower pressure than pure steam at the same temperature. Adding glycol can increase the operating pressure and temperature and thus heating capacity of the jacket.

To avoid a phase change would require pumping glycol in large volumes over the heaters with different circuiting in the jacket.

Oil filled jackets operate without the phase change and at a much higher temperature to drive the heat transfer.

[The Booze Pipe]

Perhaps he just meant a RTD Sensor which is commonly used for both PIDs and some variable power controllers.

If he intends to mash and strip within this boiler, wouldn't a PID be useful for mashing?

I'm getting a thermowell for a PID probe (built into the power controlller box)

I'm curious how well a PID will work for controlling steam production.

I'm really not sure what the PID will do for steam production. And I don't know if it's specifically an RTD sensor, but it's specified as a PID built into the power controller with a probe extending from it. Oak Stills explained the potentiometers can be used separately from the PID to control power. They did not explain more than that!

I would think the PID would be useful for mashing directly in the boiler. But I also think it would be more useful to have the probe in the boiler, not the jacket in that case... what do you think?

[Salt Must Flow]

On this page Oak Stills refers to the temp probe as a 'PT-100 thermocouple'. The photo shows it has 3 connectors to the controller. 'Thermocouples' typically have have two connectors if I'm not mistaken. I know K Type Thermocouples do.

On Auber Instruments website they refer to them as 'PT-100 RTD Sensors'. PT-100 RTD Sensors have 3 connectors as well.

The Booze Pipe, you're absolutely correct, for mashing, it would be appropriate for a temp probe to be within the boiler.

The Booze Pipe, if you installed a Panel Mount Connector for the RTD Sensor, that would allow you to easily disconnect the probe from the controller box. It would then allow you to connect a separate temp probe to the controller for monitoring the mash temp. I always use connectors with my temp probes so I can disconnect them, roll them up and store them so they aren't dangling around and fixed to the controller box. Auber even sells 12" and 14" long probes that could be helpful for monitoring mash temp.

[The Booze Pipe]

On this page Oak Stills refers to the temp probe as a 'PT-100 thermocouple'. The photo shows it has 3 connectors to the controller. 'Thermocouples' typically have have two connectors if I'm not mistaken. I know K Type Thermocouples do.

On Auber Instruments website they refer to them as 'PT-100 RTD Sensors'. PT-100 RTD Sensors have 3 connectors as well.

The Booze Pipe, you're absolutely correct, for mashing, it would be appropriate for a temp probe to be within the boiler.

The Booze Pipe, if you installed a Panel Mount Connector for the RTD Sensor, that would allow you to easily disconnect the probe from the controller box. It would then allow you to connect a separate temp probe to the controller for monitoring the mash temp. I always use connectors with my temp probes so I can disconnect them, roll them up and store them so they aren't dangling around and fixed to the controller box. Auber even sells 12" and 14" long probes that could be helpful for monitoring mash temp.

a picture of the probe, and three wires (highlighted in green) inside the box.
So you're saying to put a connector between the probe and PID? Or run more than one probe at the same time?
As far as a different probe, I would just have to dangle one over the edge into the boiler/mash.

[Salt Must Flow]

On this page Oak Stills refers to the temp probe as a 'PT-100 thermocouple'. The photo shows it has 3 connectors to the controller. 'Thermocouples' typically have have two connectors if I'm not mistaken. I know K Type Thermocouples do.

On Auber Instruments website they refer to them as 'PT-100 RTD Sensors'. PT-100 RTD Sensors have 3 connectors as well.

The Booze Pipe, you're absolutely correct, for mashing, it would be appropriate for a temp probe to be within the boiler.

The Booze Pipe, if you installed a Panel Mount Connector for the RTD Sensor, that would allow you to easily disconnect the probe from the controller box. It would then allow you to connect a separate temp probe to the controller for monitoring the mash temp. I always use connectors with my temp probes so I can disconnect them, roll them up and store them so they aren't dangling around and fixed to the controller box. Auber even sells 12" and 14" long probes that could be helpful for monitoring mash temp.

a picture of the probe, and three wires (highlighted in green) inside the box.
So you're saying to put a connector between the probe and PID? Or run more than one probe at the same time?
As far as a different probe, I would just have to dangle one over the edge into the boiler/mash.

No, the panel mount allows you to wire the PID to the panel mount. The panel mount is installed 'through' the wall of the enclosure. Then you can wire your RTD Sensor to the other half of the panel mount so it will allow you to quick disconnect the RTD Sensor whenever you want. You can also have multiple RTD Sensors and quick connect any of them at any time. Right now your RTD Sensor is hard wired directly to the PID and it seems silly for the wire to be pinched in the door seal like that. Obviously they did that to keep the cost down which was probably a good thing, but now you can make improvements when/if needed. A panel mount is a good improvement because they are very convenient in my opinion.

The Panel Mount has 3 little pins that you solder the 3 wires leading from the PID to. The other half of the Panel Mount also has 3 little pins that you solder the 3 wires from the RTD Sensor to. It basically converts your 'hard wired' sensor into a 'Quick Disconnect' sensor. Also allowing your controller to be compatible with multiple sensors any time you want to swap one out for another one. Some may be long, some may be short, some may be threaded into the boiler, some may not be screwed into the boiler. RTD Sensors are just a tool and some versions are better suited for one job over another.

[shadylane]

Right now your RTD Sensor is hard wired directly to the PID and it seems silly for the wire to be pinched in the door seal like that. Obviously they did that to keep the cost down which was probably a good thing, but now you can make improvements when/if needed. A panel mount is a good improvement because they are very convenient in my opinion.

Damn, oakstills fucked up on that one. They could of at least passed the wire through a hole protected by a grommet.
I'd get a 3 pin connector so the probe can be disconnected without opening the box.
If you want to get fancy use two and have a switch to select one or the other probe.

GX16 3 Pin Aviation Connector Panel Mount Circular Metal Adapter Male Female Plug Socket
Amazon has 5 of them for $7

[shadylane]

Water vs glycol
Water boils and creates steam under pressure.
Glycol just gets hot and transfers energy without creating pressure.

Glycol increases the temperature of the boiling point of the steam. The jacketed kettle shown in this thread with glycol still works like steam in jacket with the phase change being the primary mode of the heat transfer. Glycol will have lower pressure than pure steam at the same temperature. Adding glycol can increase the operating pressure and temperature and thus heating capacity of the jacket.

To avoid a phase change would require pumping glycol in large volumes over the heaters with different circuiting in the jacket.

Oil filled jackets operate without the phase change and at a much higher temperature to drive the heat transfer.

Your right about glycol and I wasn't

[Salt Must Flow]

Right now your RTD Sensor is hard wired directly to the PID and it seems silly for the wire to be pinched in the door seal like that. Obviously they did that to keep the cost down which was probably a good thing, but now you can make improvements when/if needed. A panel mount is a good improvement because they are very convenient in my opinion.

Damn, oakstills fucked up on that one. They could of at least passed the wire through a hole protected by a grommet.
I'd get a 3 pin connector so the probe can be disconnected without opening the box.
If you want to get fancy use two and have a switch to select one or the other probe.

GX16 3 Pin Aviation Connector Panel Mount Circular Metal Adapter Male Female Plug Socket
Amazon has 5 of them for $7

I hear ya, but it probably cut down enough on the cost and they also didn't have to drill a hole in the enclosure. The end user could drill a hole exactly where THEY prefer and install whatever connector THEY want. It's $5 for Auber's Panel mount, perhaps cheaper elsewhere, but those disconnect similar to an air compressor fitting. You pull back on the collar and it pops right off. No need to screw the collar on or anything like that. They're really nice. I don't know what the proper term is to find them elsewhere. The ones you listed are really nice, especially for the price.

[The Booze Pipe]

Thank you for your help fellas. It's an upgrade I'll make in the future! I'm sure Oak Stills were keeping the cost down. It could be an oversight, but I bet they had a reasoning for how they built it.
I just got my 60 amp service installed with some 6 gauge wire to feed the controller! I'm short a plug (to the element) but just about ready to crank it up (Marty Mcfly blowing up the guitar & amp)

[The Booze Pipe]

On this page Oak Stills refers to the temp probe as a 'PT-100 thermocouple'. The photo shows it has 3 connectors to the controller. 'Thermocouples' typically have have two connectors if I'm not mistaken. I know K Type Thermocouples do.

On Auber Instruments website they refer to them as 'PT-100 RTD Sensors'. PT-100 RTD Sensors have 3 connectors as well.

The Booze Pipe, you're absolutely correct, for mashing, it would be appropriate for a temp probe to be within the boiler.

The Booze Pipe, if you installed a Panel Mount Connector for the RTD Sensor, that would allow you to easily disconnect the probe from the controller box. It would then allow you to connect a separate temp probe to the controller for monitoring the mash temp. I always use connectors with my temp probes so I can disconnect them, roll them up and store them so they aren't dangling around and fixed to the controller box. Auber even sells 12" and 14" long probes that could be helpful for monitoring mash temp.

a picture of the probe, and three wires (highlighted in green) inside the box.
So you're saying to put a connector between the probe and PID? Or run more than one probe at the same time?
As far as a different probe, I would just have to dangle one over the edge into the boiler/mash.

No, the panel mount allows you to wire the PID to the panel mount. The panel mount is installed 'through' the wall of the enclosure. Then you can wire your RTD Sensor to the other half of the panel mount so it will allow you to quick disconnect the RTD Sensor whenever you want. You can also have multiple RTD Sensors and quick connect any of them at any time. Right now your RTD Sensor is hard wired directly to the PID and it seems silly for the wire to be pinched in the door seal like that. Obviously they did that to keep the cost down which was probably a good thing, but now you can make improvements when/if needed. A panel mount is a good improvement because they are very convenient in my opinion.


Panel Mount 01.jpg



Panel Mount 02.jpg


The Panel Mount has 3 little pins that you solder the 3 wires leading from the PID to. The other half of the Panel Mount also has 3 little pins that you solder the 3 wires from the RTD Sensor to. It basically converts your 'hard wired' sensor into a 'Quick Disconnect' sensor. Also allowing your controller to be compatible with multiple sensors any time you want to swap one out for another one. Some may be long, some may be short, some may be threaded into the boiler, some may not be screwed into the boiler. RTD Sensors are just a tool and some versions are better suited for one job over another.

got ya! I missed the "panel mount" portion of that. It makes more sense now, thank you. I'll make those upgrades eventually. As a matter of fact, the PID was a surprise to me! I hope it'll work for me at some point. I'll talk to them about probe placement... they say they are always open to ideas and criticism.

[The Booze Pipe]

The controller all but finished. Just need a plug end for my second element. Its pretty slick, and a huge upgrade from what I had.

[The Booze Pipe]

I finally got to use this boiler for a strip, and two issues were found with it...but first, it worked very well for me overall... I was able to siphon off the top of the ferment for the first strip. The second strip consisted of everything else going straight in the boiler, grains and all! Very fast heat up time at about an hour & ten. I was able to give it some stirs using the manway, which was very convenient. I'm not sure how necessary it was, but I didn't want to take the chance. also, true to size, it wont fit much more than 26 gallons.

First issue is, Oak Stills did not build the darn thing level, its about .5" out! And not on the drain aspect, but 90d to that, if that makes sense. Next issue is it's too low to the ground, so I can't fit a five gallon bucket under the drain valve. That makes it darn difficult getting all the grain drained out.

I'll see if they can build me new legs that are taller, with bigger castors, that might fix both problems. It just might be complicated enough I'll have to take it to my local fabricator. I'll work with it for now so I can really figure out what it all needs. It might require cross braces with taller legs.

After using the controller as well, there are some major issues with it! I may need to create a new thread else where about it. Two main issues are the potentiomenters are junk, they only go 0-10 and are super sensitive so its difficult to adjust to a specific power setting. And then they drift, some times up to a whole point!
the controller operates on the amp side of things, instead of adjusting the voltage, it adjusts amperage. Which I could be wrong, but that's where all your "power" is, and the volts temper it up or down. My old controller adjusted the voltage, and it worked great! I could adjust it at the least about 2 volt increments. It made it easy to set to a specific power setting.

[Yummyrum]

Good to get some feedback on the new setup Booze Pipes .

Regarding the controller . Oakstills call it a variable Amps controller but it uses a standard SSVR phase controller just like 95% of all controllers use . It works just like your old one did. They just call it a different name and because you have an Ammeter to watch , you think it is adjusting the Amps .

It is effectively adjusting the amount of time per half mains cycle that your element gets power .
It is not controlling the Amps or the Voltage for that matter , however the “Average” voltage that is applied to your element will determine the average current that it pulls .

Regarding 0-10
Well they could put anything on it A-Z , 0-2000watts , 0-5500w they could even put 0-240volts .
All it means is it controls from 0% -100% power .

It does look like a titchy pot so maybe it is touchy to adjust . You could replace it with a standard 2watt type and you could put a label under the knob that says 0- what ever you like .

As for the drifting . That could be the Pot , but it is also likely that it is your Mains voltage varying in your street . Hell mine does something shocking . My 240v supply can ho from 225-245 during the day . This will directly effect the displayed current .

[Black Bull]

I have a similar unit from Oak stills.
The pots are all but useless, adjusting output is pretty much guess work.
Mine maxes out at a combined 24A @ around 240v
I dont have a voltmeter on mine yet so I just work off how many amps total for a guide to how much power I'm applying.

[Yummyrum]

Mine maxes out at a combined 24A @ around 240v

Remember that it is the element that is maxing out @24amps .
You must have an element around 5500-6000watts .

If you had say a 9kw element , then it would be maxing out at 37.5amps . The controller is not limiting the amps at full power . It is letting the element pull its maximum current .

Having said that , all phase controllers that have a pot to control them can never actually reach 100% power by design . It is closer to 97%

[Yummyrum]

Sorry for the OT , but here is a pic of a phase controller at minimum power . You can see that there is just a tiny burst of power going to the element each half cycle .

This is at 50% power . You can see that the power is being applied to the element for half of every half cycle .

This is at maximum . Almost all the power is getting to the element but you can see a tiny gap at the beginning of every half cycle . This is caused by the components in the phase controller needing a minimum voltage before the Switching Triac can turn on
This is what I was meaning about they can never supply 100% power but closer to 97%

Also out of interest , say blackbulls element is pulling 24amps at 240volts , it must have a resistance or 10ohms .

At the peak of the mains half cycle the voltage is actually 340v on a 240v system ( peak =1.414 x RMS )
Blackbulls element will actually be pulling 34amps at the peak of the half cycle . But its all about average voltage , average current and average power .

[Black Bull]

ah, ok.
supposedly, I've got two 3000w elements

[Yummyrum]

ah, ok.
supposedly, I've got two 3000w elements

That would be right then …… well close enough