Jacketed boiler learning curve

[Hounddog1]

Recently “upgraded” to a 100 liter jacketed boiler and am trying to learn how to run it smoothly. Unfortunately so far it has been a challenge. My temp controller to heat the water bath has 2 elements and runs on a percentage of output. I am doing a COB on the grain and am having a really hard time getting it dialed in. My temp at the top of my column wants to soar unless I turn the heat way down which then causes the output to drip so slow it would take way too long to finish the run. I am only running at 30% and if I turn it down to 20% I barely get a drip. Just can’t seem to find the sweet spot. I’ve read this can be a problem with jacketed boilers as far as slower reaction to heat adjustments but I am hoping there is something I can do that will help me get it dialed in and running more efficiently. Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.

[Salt Must Flow]

Are you just doing a stripping run? If so ... crank the power up and and get it done as fast as you can. I can't think of any reason to run it slower unless it tends to foam. If it does foam, add some vegetable oil or butter to the boiler.

[SW_Shiner]

The column temp is probably throwing you off too, what kind of column is it? And is it a stripping or spirit run?

[NZChris]

My temp at the top of my column wants to soar....

This is meaningless without knowing the actual temperature. If it is soaring above 212 F, you're in deep crap and need to shut down immediately.

[The Booze Pipe]

I'm curious who the manufacturer is? Where are the elements located? And how much liquid is in the jacket, and what kind? It's sounding more like its a Power Controller issues to me... who manufactured that?

[Hounddog1]

Just the stripping run and it’s goes up to 200 quickly which is what my controller was set to stop at so I changed that. North Stills is the manufacturer of the boiler. Just seems like it needs constant adjustment, which is fine but wondering if there’s some advice to do it better.

[shadylane]

If it's just a stripping run without any reflux.
Forget about the temp and run the heaters based on take off rate.

[SW_Shiner]

What is the ABV of the wash? 200°F might be the correct temp. But as Shady said, if it's just a stripping run then forget about temp and run it till everything you've collected is your target spirit run ABV.

[Hounddog1]

Had to set the PID controller to cut off at 206 instead of 200 and it went ok. I just had to adjust the heat every so often. Mash was ~10% ABV. I’m more concerned about smearing cuts during the spirit run if I can’t maintain a steady temperature.

[SW_Shiner]

PID is the wrong thing to be controlling a still with. You cant set a temp and expect it to come off at that. Distillation needs to be controlled by adjusting the power constantly going to the elements. Not cycling the power on and off as a PID does. Does your controller have an option to to control power as a percentage?

Smearing will be caused by trying to maintain a constant temp.

What still do you have?

[Salt Must Flow]

Had to set the PID controller to cut off at 206 instead of 200 and it went ok. I just had to adjust the heat every so often. Mash was ~10% ABV. I’m more concerned about smearing cuts during the spirit run if I can’t maintain a steady temperature.

In your original post you said, "My temp controller to heat the water bath has 2 elements and runs on a percentage of output". You called it a "temp controller" and said it "runs on a percentage of output".

Now I'm really confused because you just called it a a PID controller.

You cannot operate a still using a PID controller. You cannot operate a still by temperature. You need to operate the still by variable power input.

[Hounddog1]

So I have a Auber DSPR 220 which is a PID controller as I understand it but it has a mash and distill mode. Mash mode maintains the set temperature and distill mode works on a percentage of output. In distill mode it has a high temp cutoff that was set to 200f which was causing me a problem so I set it to 206. Maybe I am not using the correct terminology but that’s how I understand it. Been using the exact same setup on a keg boiler without any issues but the jacketed boiler is a different animal.

[SW_Shiner]

Ok, so probably be better to set the temp cutoff at 212 or higher, use the fine tune knob to control the boil. There will be some lag time between making an adjustment and it actually taking effect due to the added thermal mass of the transfer medium. Id go up a percent or two, then let settle in for a minute or so before repeating till the stream is what you want. Forget about looking at the thermometer for now, especially for a stripping run.

[Hounddog1]

I will do that. Im sure it will take a few runs to get a good feel for it. Thank you for the help. It is much appreciated.

[Salt Must Flow]

So I have a Auber DSPR 220 which is a PID controller as I understand it but it has a mash and distill mode. Mash mode maintains the set temperature and distill mode works on a percentage of output. In distill mode it has a high temp cutoff that was set to 200f which was causing me a problem so I set it to 206. Maybe I am not using the correct terminology but that’s how I understand it. Been using the exact same setup on a keg boiler without any issues but the jacketed boiler is a different animal.

Got it. I have two DSPR400 controllers so I know exactly what you're talking about now.

Yes do what SW_Shiner said and set that temp limit real high, unattainable high (perhaps over 212F) so it will never interrupt in the future. Once you do that, it will behave like it should. I recall there being at least 1 or 2 settings I had to change before my Auber DSPR400 operated as it should.

[shadylane]

So I have a Auber DSPR 220 which is a PID controller as I understand it but it has a mash and distill mode. Mash mode maintains the set temperature and distill mode works on a percentage of output. In distill mode it has a high temp cutoff that was set to 200f which was causing me a problem so I set it to 206. Maybe I am not using the correct terminology but that’s how I understand it. Been using the exact same setup on a keg boiler without any issues but the jacketed boiler is a different animal.

Dumb question but Is the 206'f jacket temp or boiler charge temp?

[Hounddog1]

Ok great. I will do that. Thank you. Temp is the probe temp at the top of my “column” which is really just a 4” tee with a sight glass then 4x2 reducer and a 180 to the condenser.

[shadylane]

Got it vapor temp.
Assuming your at sea level and the probe is accurate, I'd set the temp cutoff at 210ish.
That way the power will shut off before the pot boils dry.
Adjust the power based on takeoff rate.

edited, on 2nd thought I set the cutoff to 212' for the first run.

[NZChris]

Temperatures of the vapor and the charge are so different and variable that I saved myself from being confused by removing the top thermometer. The relationship varied with power, ambient temperature, weather, air speed, open or shut doors etc..

The temperature of the charge is its boiling point which can be used as a warning if there is a blockage, and to calculate the ABV remaining if all is well.

[Hounddog1]

Ok. Yea that makes sense. Can you explain how to calculate remaining ABV based on the charge temperature?

[shadylane]

Use the blue line for figuring out the liquid % and the red line for vapor %
When the pot is boiling @ 206'f there's 4% alcohol in the pot and the vapor is around 32%

[LWTCS]

Can you post a napkin diagram that illustrates how the kettle is set up?
Element locations, heating media levels, etc.

[Hounddog1]

That’s interesting. Thank you. Sorry for the bad drawing.

[The Booze Pipe]

That’s interesting. Thank you. Sorry for the bad drawing.

Is there a pressure relief valve (PRV) & pressure gauge for the jacket?

[The Booze Pipe]

Use the blue line for figuring out the liquid % and the red line for vapor %
When the pot is boiling @ 206'f there's 4% alcohol in the pot and the vapor is around 32%

I don't believe I have seen this chart before... but I've never had a temp probe in the boiler. I have one now, but it is located at the top, essentially in the vapor path. That wouldn't work for this chart would it?.... oh I see, I just follow the Red Line. don't mind me, I probably shouldn't be posting while still drinking my espresso.

[LWTCS]

Hounddog1,
Are you really filling up your jacket space with that much heating media? Are you using oil?

[The Booze Pipe]

Hounddog1,
Are you really filling up your jacket space with that much heating media? Are you using oil?

I think we're after the same thing... if using water, lower the level to just above the elements, and run more steam.

[Hounddog1]

I have an PRV/vacuum breaker and another PRV and pressure gauge on the jacket and a PRV/vacuum breaker and pressure gauge on the boiler as well. I use water in the jacket and I would say I have the water level a little lower than my drawing suggests but it could definitely be lowered more if that would be beneficial. Would having more steam in the jacket instead of a higher water level equate to a smoother operation?

[LWTCS]

Hounddog1,
Are you really filling up your jacket space with that much heating media? Are you using oil?

I think we're after the same thing... if using water, lower the level to just above the elements, and run more steam.

Yes.
However, depending on the distance in between the jacket and the inner wall of the kettle,,oil might be the better choice?

[LWTCS]

I have an PRV/vacuum breaker and another PRV and pressure gauge on the jacket and a PRV/vacuum breaker and pressure gauge on the boiler as well. I use water in the jacket and I would say I have the water level a little lower than my drawing suggests but it could definitely be lowered more if that would be beneficial. Would having more steam in the jacket instead of a higher water level equate to a smoother operation?

Lowering the water level will provide a faster heat up time as there will be less mass to heat. Also, it will expose more surface area for heat to transfer into your kettle charge.

Just need to make sure not to dryfire the elements by not having enough water. Is that really where your liquid level gauge is landed?