Soldering multiple copper bits needs multiple arms???

[Yummyrum]

Soldered will be stronger with the strength of hard copper.
Due to the higher heated needed for brazing, it will have the strength of annealed copper.

I totally agree . If that creation is dropped or gets hit , it will guarantee to buckle or cave in. Lead free soft solder in a capillary fitted situation is very strong and the copper is not softened during the soldering process .

[shadylane]

There's no substitute for hands on experience.
Get some fittings, tubing, make some test pieces and try the different options then decide what works best.

Not to sound mean.
By not telling us what the project is or even the requirements.
Your guilty of throwing the ball out in the tall grass and watching us hunt for it.

[BritishChemist]

There's no substitute for hands on experience.
Get some fittings, tubing, make some test pieces and try the different options then decide what works best.

Not to sound mean.
By not telling us what the project is or even the requirements.
Your guilty of throwing the ball out in the tall grass and watching us hunt for it.

I like the K.I.S.S. principle...... the topic is about how I can fabricate a component, what comes to light as various aspects are examined, what might work, what might be easiest/simplest/cheapest best quality etc.
What it's for is irrelevant at least at this stage.
I have had a word with my "co-conspirator" on the project overall and said that at some stage I'd like to share a bit about the wider project.... So far I got "we'll see".....
That doesn't impair the sharing of the issue under discussion - and so far a great deal has been investigated, trials run and key learnings made!

Tempering a copper part with essentially copper welds (that's what we end up with!) is just another issue to be addressed. Just because it might be annealed and soft after brazing doesn't mean it has to stay that way......

Just a few minutes ago, I've just finished "CopperPhos" brazing sections of the "Zig-Zag" comprising short straight sections with an elbow at each end. When pickled (I always use citric acid for effectiveness and safety) I'll put up some photos of the work-in-progress. I'm extremely impressed with this latest run, on real parts.
The rod melted well, very fluid, very low surface tension on the copper too. It is important to get used to the colour of the heated part to ensure that the correct melt temperature is "there" before hoping that you're actually there!!! Good job I'd practiced that on the earlier testbed runs.....
A simple touch of rod saw the braze carry right around the joint and get drawn in; it was easy to see when enough rod had been applied as excess began to settle on the outside rim of the joints. Not in blobs either - the low surface tension ensured that any excess spread neatly around the entire circumference!!!
For now, my small stock of hard silver solder will stay in the soldering draw.....
Hope you all find this as interesting as I did!!!

[shadylane]

It is important to get used to the colour of the heated part to ensure that the correct melt temperature is "there" before hoping that you're actually there!!!

Instead of guessing the proper color, I use the brazing rod as a temp sensor.
When the joint is the right temp the rod will flow.
On a side note.
Copper isn't heat treated or tempered, it can only be annealed or work hardened.

[BritishChemist]

It is important to get used to the colour of the heated part to ensure that the correct melt temperature is "there" before hoping that you're actually there!!!

Instead of guessing the proper color, I use the brazing rod as a temp sensor.
When the joint is the right temp the rod will flow.
On a side note.
Copper isn't heat treated or tempered, it can only be annealed or work hardened.

I'm not promoting "guessing"..... Like you, probably, I have acquired a good estimate of when the workpiece is hot enough from its colour as a first pass estimate. The only way to know that the melt temperature is reached, as you say, is indeed to touch the joint with the rod. It's not difficult (as I'm sure you will have experienced yourself) to get close, by colour, so that you avoid potentially disturbing the "set" of the work by getting the rod stuck and pulling something astray?
The most exciting aspect of what I've found with CuP rod is the very low viscosity (high "runny-ness") of the melted rod and its very low surface tension. It's almost like the molten rod is "looking for a joint to dive into"!!!
A key issue, I feel, is that "better too hot than too cold" can within reason be adopted, because the rod alloy itself acts as a flux! On my previous test pieces, I'd noted that if the workpiece is overheated, there seems to be no damage to the melt or self-flux characteristics of the rod. So operartional temperature range is usefully broadened.

Here's a couple of photos of the parts in the pickle bath, and then rinsed and dried.


PS: I did enter a post yesterday with these photos, but it seems to have gone astray!

[jonnys_spirit]

Looks good. You’ll know it’s too hot when it doesn’t flow and it bounces off. Like drops of water dancing on a red hot skillet. When it’s in the right temp window it melts and flows into the joint.

Cheers,
-jonny

[BritishChemist]

Looks good. You’ll know it’s too hot when it doesn’t flow and it bounces off. Like drops of water dancing on a red hot skillet. When it’s in the right temp window it melts and flows into the joint.

Cheers,
-jonny

Interesting.
I have seen that effect whilst hard silver soldering, but even when going significantly over temperature with CuP, I didn't see any of that.
Maybe I was lucky, but I will look for that specifically next time I get the brazing gear out for a play.
Only a few days away from that now - I'm going to braze in/out ports onto the lateral pipes.

The idea is that all of the small, fiddly stuff gets brazed onto the pipe in the form of a "standard" port - a brass fitting that you can think of as a way to get a stable side-hole neatly and leak-free. Simply brass rod bored through to the desired bore and then "troughed" at the joint end with a radius matching that of the pipework radius. Anything required beyond this "hole fitting" can then be soft soldered to the free end (of known measurements) without fear of spoiling the integrity of the main pipework!
Once the hole to accept it is drilled into the pipe and cleaned up of burrs, a through-rod of titanium (or similar non-stick, solder-resistant metal) holds the port exactly over/onto the hole, and is easily remove afterwards

BTW I have absolutely no idea why the site "attachment handler" shows the photos upside down.

[Yummyrum]

BTW I have absolutely no idea why the site "attachment handler" shows the photos upside down.

My guess is you had your phone upside down .
But , yeah , the work-a-round is to edit any pic before you unload it . Just the smallest crop or adjustment of the image will strip off the orientation metadata and the pic will show in the correct orientation .

BTW , rotated yours .

Getting back to your brazing adventures , I’m sure you are all over this being a chemist and all , but you will need to get some flux when you attempt to braze the brass fittings to the Copper .

Copper to copper brazing needs no flux…. As you found out .

Brass to copper does .
Being a Chemist , you can probably make your own . My dad was a watchmaker / Jeweller . He just used Borax ( Sodium tetraborate ) and a splash of water .
His father and brothers were plumbers and did the same with Silphos brazing rods .

Or just buy some from a hardware or welding shop . All premixed in a nice bottle

[BritishChemist]

BTW I have absolutely no idea why the site "attachment handler" shows the photos upside down.

My guess is you had your phone upside down .
But , yeah , the work-a-round is to edit any pic before you unload it . Just the smallest crop or adjustment of the image will strip off the orientation metadata and the pic will show in the correct orientation .

BTW , rotated yours .

IMG_1845.jpegIMG_1844.jpeg


Getting back to your brazing adventures , I’m sure you are all over this being a chemist and all , but you will need to get some flux when you attempt to braze the brass fittings to the Copper .

Copper to copper brazing needs no flux…. As you found out .

Brass to copper does .
Being a Chemist , you can probably make your own . My dad was a watchmaker / Jeweller . He just used Borax ( Sodium tetraborate ) and a splash of water .
His father and brothers were plumbers and did the same with Silphos brazing rods .

Or just buy some from a hardware or welding shop . All premixed in a nice bottle

On the photos, the photo was perfectly oriented when fed into the site... so thanks for turning it around!
The reason I mention it is that on my iPhone, on Windows Photoviewer and Photoshop, it comes up correctly oriented!
I find this site terribly slow and unresponsive, and I suspect, as we sometimes say, that it gets its knickers in a twist!!!!
My 500GBPS broadband seems to make no difference at all. Another mystery.


As you might guess from the nature of my posts, I'm no novice at hobby engineering including still plumbing, distilling, the Sciences generally, computers and processor hardware of most forms, software and maths; been up to mischief with them all for decades.
Which leads to my confirmation that I settled on borax paste as my default brazing and silver soldering flux several decades ago. And, BTW, zinc chloride paste for soft soldering too........
I keep both in jars as paste and take what I need for a "session" out of the jar - throwing away what isn't used. Prevents contamination of the stocks but it's hardly a problem provided that the workpieces (and flux brush!!!) are kept spotless. Better safe than sorry using the K.I.S.S. principle.
I have used borax as flux for several years when silver soldering and brazing many different metals and combinations thereof.

I gave Silphos a try quite a while ago but wasn't impressed with it compared to silver solder.
Likewise (on some steel work, NOT copper) I played around with manganese brass brazing rods but found the melt characteristics rather poor.
It was my experience with them all that silver solder was the "slickest" and problem free, using borax as flux to maintain commonality as far as possible, but not for copper-to-copper work. Silver is just becoming so darned expensive though!
That is why I evaluated CuP. Not because I'm green-as-grass on the technicalities but because silver solder is pricing itself out of most applications!

CuP is by a good margin, for copper-copper workpieces as so far evaluated, a country mile better than anything else I've used!
Copper-to-brass workpieces do of course require a flux, but I understand that CuP is a good choice for brazing them too.
We'll soon find out as I plan to do some test brazing of the metal mix with CuP and borax ASAP.
♦♦♦More updates when I'm done!♦♦♦

[shadylane]

Be careful when brazing brass to copper because brass has a melting point lower than copper.
Often the brass will be in the plastic state and deform during the brazing.

[Black Bull]

I bought some of those Copper rods a while back, glad to see they work as advertised

[BritishChemist]

I bought some of those Copper rods a while back, glad to see they work as advertised

The Chinese suppliers are now tending to refer to them as "BCu3P" though I read somewhere that in the USA it's referred to as "BCuP-2" - best let our American friends check that up though? They contain 7 to 8.5% phosphorus and copper to make up to 100%. No other elements such as cadmium in there, so I have no qualms about safety.

I'm just having a coffee (11:30am here) after doing a bit of brass-to-copper brazing with this stuff. Did very well and a bonus I've noticed is that the finished joint is full of material that is "near as darn it" copper anyway, so the silvery smudges you get with braze are no longer there. You get a nice, even meniscus of what looks like copper when all is finished! It looks much more professional, to me anyway.....
I'll post some photos when the workpieces are out of the pickle bath. I'll include details of the little titanium clips I've been using to keep small brass ports properly located on the copper tubing whilst brazing. Very simple and very effective. Braze doesn't stick to titanium so the clips come out afterwards clean as a whistle!!!!!
Back soon.

[BritishChemist]

Some photos!
All done, no leaks, all joints have a super melt meniscus.
The Ti clips came out just as easily as they went in. Seemed to hold the brass port well enough in, even at red heat......

I was involved in a pilot plant for titanium production many years ago, before I switched employment from chemistry to microprocessors, which suffered a catastrophic fire - titanium burns in nitrogen as well as oxygen so once it does catch fire, it burns up extremely well..... We were well below the temperature needed for that; though I would be cautious if using an oxygen-rich acetylene torch to do this?!!!
Anyone wanting to appraise the workings of a titanium fire could take a small amount of titanium turnings (the finer the better) on a ceramic tile or similar. Apply a butane lighter and see the fire catch and quickly spread. If you put some heavier-gauge turnings next to the "starter" ones, you'll see just how dangerous things might become if you are foolhardy with this stuff?

Onwards and upwards!

[Yummyrum]

Nice work BC

Interesting about the Titanium not sticking and it being able to burn .I’m guessing it’s a bit like magnesium .

A trick to stopping braze running is to paint a ring around the joint with Liquid paper . It stops the run dead in it’s tracks and saves cleanup

[MooseMan]

Does this work the same with solder too yummy?

I'm guessing what you call liquid paper is "tippex" for us Brits?

This little trick is right up there with your blue tack moat for drilling!

We really, really need a sticky page that lists all of these handy tricks that get lost in the mass.

[Saltbush Bill]

I would have thought everyone knew the liquid paper trick, its been in common use for years.

[Yummyrum]

I would have thought everyone knew the liquid paper trick, its been in common use for years.

I think thats the point moose was getting at Salty .
You and me have been looking at build topics for years . Little tricks like these are there but buried deep . Unless they are shown from time to time , they get missed and forgotten .Like the method you showed recently about getting sight-glass mounts to match the curve of the column .

[Tammuz]

Liquid papers throws off some bad fumes when heated. Yellow ochre paint is cheaper and works well.

[BritishChemist]

I would have thought everyone knew the liquid paper trick, its been in common use for years.

NB: I'm JOKING!!!

I don't have any liquid paper, or a typewriter. I use the delete key on my computer's keyboard?......

[BritishChemist]

I would have thought everyone knew the liquid paper trick, its been in common use for years.

I think thats the point moose was getting at Salty .
You and me have been looking at build topics for years . Little tricks like these are there but buried deep . Unless they are shown from time to time , they get missed and forgotten .Like the method you showed recently about getting sight-glass mounts to match the curve of the column .

Oooooh yes!!!
What a great idea!
Especially if it's neatly indexed by keyword so that before trying an idea out for real, we could do a quick sanity check to see if issues/problems/ tips/tricks had already been discussed?
Really really useful.

An analogy with an "AI" connection:-
I'm deeply into computer control and telemetry for my own stills, these days with ESP32's in particular, but previously even with b-i-g computer stuff too....
Until a couple of years ago, when they began to be really smart devices, I only used a mobile phone for calls. If I needed text or file attachments, I used email. As did/still do, very many people.
But I had the idea that as well as getting my existing telemetry data link (via "ESP Now") to my desktop computer over WiFi where other than loading a spreadsheet it did no actual control functions in the reverse direction, why not also send simple updated to my mobile phone screen with some ESP32 program that delivered it over the air?
Bluetooth seemed a great candidate because if my still is running I am definitely within Bluetooth range of it anyway!

For the first time - having been involved to quite some degree at Intel (worked there for 20 years) on then-primitive AI via hardware Neural Nets - I gave "Chat GPT" a try and asked it the simple question:

"Using an ESP32, can you give me a very simple ESP32 sketch for the Arduino IDE which will send a single ESP32 Variable to my mobile phone via Bluetooth?"

AMAZINGLY, it came back with an IDE sketch (just the Arduino word meaning program / source code) which did just that, first time, flawlessly!

Saved me a week or two learning the necessaries in getting into the new field of Bluetooth tech (to me).
So now, I don't need a sophisticated LCD display of still parameters on my still's control CPU, nor a lump of software to make the LCD screen work.
I have very basic (OLED) visual display with touch-button selection for different parameters.
ALL of the detailed information now goes straight to my Mobile phone's screen as it happens and I can select it/ignore it as I choose.
And to my desktop, as before, for archiving etc., over ESP Now.

So, if anyone out there ever needed something like that, and we had the proposed tips and tricks facility, they'd save as much time as I did PLUS the knowledge that the technique actually worked!

The idea is just the stuff I was hoping for from this website.
Yes a bit of chat and banter is always welcome, but grade "A" utility is invaluable to hobbyists?

Great work!