PH drop during fermentation

[Stags]

I'm doing an inverted sugar wash and I have a stuck ferment as well. I checked the PH and holy crap, it was down to like 3.6. I added 2 1\2 tsp of baking soda to bring it up to 4.6 or so. Maybe that's not enough? This all went down like an hour ago so I'll give it some time. But maybe I need to bring that PH up to like 5.2 or better?

This is the 2nd time I've done this and never had that problem before, but my PH must have been too low to start.

Gotta be careful with baking soda. Got frustrated with a stuck wash once and dumped the whole box in. Almost had to redo the ceiling on my shed.

[Orpheus123]

Yeah, it's neat as hell watching that stuff foam up.

Anyhoo, I waited a day and nothing. I added another 2 1\2 tsp.

Then, I hydrated another 1.5 TBSP of yeast.

Stirred the wash, pitched the yeast, and it started bubbling almost immediately. Been going for a good 20 minutes plus now...I think I solved it.

My guess is, the PH got so low because I started it so low. Does that kill the yeast? I dunno, but it was a dead stick till I put the hydrated yeast in it.

In any case, it should ferment out and hopefully won't have too much weird flavors due to all the fanagling. We'll see.

[PalCabral]

Yeah, it's neat as hell watching that stuff foam up.

Anyhoo, I waited a day and nothing. I added another 2 1\2 tsp.

Then, I hydrated another 1.5 TBSP of yeast.

Stirred the wash, pitched the yeast, and it started bubbling almost immediately. Been going for a good 20 minutes plus now...I think I solved it.

My guess is, the PH got so low because I started it so low. Does that kill the yeast? I dunno, but it was a dead stick till I put the hydrated yeast in it.

In any case, it should ferment out and hopefully won't have too much weird flavors due to all the fanagling. We'll see.

This has been my solution too. I use the Hornindal kveik yeast for all slow and sloppy ferments, it just does the job. Love it.

[LWTCS]

+1 Shady. There's no reason to lower a sugar wash pH. It will do it on its own.

pH becomes important when mashing grains, as if it is too high, enzymes don't work as well. But the goal is never to lower it for the sake of fermentation; that happens naturally. And it's not a bad thing, provided it doesn't plummet. The lower pH keeps other things from growing in your ferment. Just can't go TOO low, or it also keeps the yeast from doing their job.

100%.
Particularly useful lesson for the commercial guys with big round bellies that have to crawl inside their cookers to clean out the " seized" blob of a corn pile hugging their rakes.

[Orpheus123]

Yeah, it's neat as hell watching that stuff foam up.

Anyhoo, I waited a day and nothing. I added another 2 1\2 tsp.

Then, I hydrated another 1.5 TBSP of yeast.

Stirred the wash, pitched the yeast, and it started bubbling almost immediately. Been going for a good 20 minutes plus now...I think I solved it.

My guess is, the PH got so low because I started it so low. Does that kill the yeast? I dunno, but it was a dead stick till I put the hydrated yeast in it.

In any case, it should ferment out and hopefully won't have too much weird flavors due to all the fanagling. We'll see.

This has been my solution too. I use the Hornindal kveik yeast for all slow and sloppy ferments, it just does the job. Love it.

I've only ever used DADY. I can't tell from various online comments as to what is the best for sugar washes, but I definitely want to look in to others as well. I'll check out your suggestion. Thanks!

[PalCabral]

On Saturday I started another fermentation of my wheated Bourbon. This time I dosed high with Calcium Carbonate just to see if I could fix the issue with PH drop. As it does, USW-6 started fermentation after the normal 10-12 hour lag phase in a furious fashion. 36 hours into the fermentation I decided to check on the SG and do a PH test. SG is already 1.012 and the PH down to 3.75. This is very similar to my last fermentation of this mash, where the PH was 3.8 when fermentation finished. I used 2L of backset in the wash so that would have added to the acidity.

Next time I'll use the mussels' shells. I had them in a muslin bag ready to go but I chickened out. There's just something about tossing in shells into my fermenter I don't like. I'll ferment another batch on this on Thursday or Friday, and I will use the shells then. Let's see.

[NZChris]

I don't like throwing crushed shells into my ferment either, so I don't. The finer the form of CC, the more reactive it is, so the easier it is to overdo it.

Large blocks and shells have a small surface area to volume ratio to react with the acids in a wash, so behave more like a buffer than crushed or powdered forms.

You can put a large block of marble into a wash even when the pH is at the top end of OK and it won't do any damage because won't react much until the pH drops. Put the same weight of powder in a wash and you might kick the can over if the pH goes too high and makes it smell like rotting flesh or ammonia.

[Bee]

The mash was 25L and I added the following nutrients: Boiled bakers yeast, 2 tsp DAP, Epsom salt 1/2 tsp, Wyeast nutrients 1/2 tsp, Chalk 1/2 tsp. The inverted sugar was made with a couple of tsps of citric acid. The water PH in my area is 8. Temperature in the brew house is 22C.

You need to get a better handle on your water chemistry. While a pH of 8 is fairly high, it doesn't say much about buffering capacity.
IMO, it's better to start out with a known-chemistry water like RO or distilled and build your desired profile from scratch. It looks like you are just adding stuff blindly.
Brewer's Friend has a decent additive calculator - https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chem ... alculator/

To get a SWAG about what your chemistry target should be, Brewer's Friend offers this - https://www.brewersfriend.com/brewing-w ... -profiles/
I like the Balanced Profile for whiskey.

I think the advice you've been given for the sugar wash is good. Oyster shells, coral or marble do a good job. I wouldn't screw much with the water profile other than that for sugar washes.

[PalCabral]

IMO, it's better to start out with a known-chemistry water like RO or distilled and build your desired profile from scratch. It looks like you are just adding stuff blindly.
Brewer's Friend has a decent additive calculator - https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chem ... alculator/

I think the advice you've been given for the sugar wash is good. Oyster shells, coral or marble do a good job. I wouldn't screw much with the water profile other than that for sugar washes.

Honestly, I think the minerals in water (communal or well) is the key to a healthy drink. Yes, sometimes they are not good for reasons, sometimes even toxic. But I live in Stockholm and I drink the water from the tap every day. It contains minerals and substances that are the "terroir" of Stockholm and as long as they are not toxic, I'm good with it. In fact, I am proud of it. RO strips that. It's the equivalence of having one barley malt, one rye grain, one yeast. And above all, it strips the minerals in water that are good for us and good for the yeast. Using RO in water is the communism of brewing.

I am an old brewer and I have a fair understanding of water chemistry when it comes to brewing. I use additives to adjust water chemistry where the local water, impacted by the malts/fermentables I mash, is impeding the health or prospects of the yeast. I am not trying to "construct" the optimal universe for yeast, nor trying to simulate Pilsen, Munich, San Fransisco, or Rochefort water. I am not saying you are telling me to do that, but suggesting to use RO means that I need to construct the water chemistry myself.

I agree, I have been given good advise by the forum. I need to watch out with sugar based mashes and I do still seem to end up low with grain based mashes. I am using Brewersfriend, as you suggested, actively but I am still surprised by the way that the PH drops so quickly when I ferment. My way of approaching it is not to nuke the water, it rather to try to narrow down how I can handle it with the water I have. Good ole Stockholm water.

But I appreciate your suggestions and concern. /Pal

[NZChris]

It's important to keep good records of everything that you do and everything happens as a result of any fiddling.

My current ferment is a repeat of many annual ferments and the pH is behaving well using my usual whole shell trick, but I'm still recording the pH, SG, temperature and any thing else relevant every time the lid comes off the can.

[Bee]

IMO, it's better to start out with a known-chemistry water like RO or distilled and build your desired profile from scratch. It looks like you are just adding stuff blindly.
Brewer's Friend has a decent additive calculator - https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chem ... alculator/

I think the advice you've been given for the sugar wash is good. Oyster shells, coral or marble do a good job. I wouldn't screw much with the water profile other than that for sugar washes.

Honestly, I think the minerals in water (communal or well) is the key to a healthy drink. Yes, sometimes they are not good for reasons, sometimes even toxic. But I live in Stockholm and I drink the water from the tap every day. It contains minerals and substances that are the "terroir" of Stockholm and as long as they are not toxic, I'm good with it. In fact, I am proud of it. RO strips that. It's the equivalence of having one barley malt, one rye grain, one yeast. And above all, it strips the minerals in water that are good for us and good for the yeast. Using RO in water is the communism of brewing.

I am an old brewer and I have a fair understanding of water chemistry when it comes to brewing. I use additives to adjust water chemistry where the local water, impacted by the malts/fermentables I mash, is impeding the health or prospects of the yeast. I am not trying to "construct" the optimal universe for yeast, nor trying to simulate Pilsen, Munich, San Fransisco, or Rochefort water. I am not saying you are telling me to do that, but suggesting to use RO means that I need to construct the water chemistry myself.

I agree, I have been given good advise by the forum. I need to watch out with sugar based mashes and I do still seem to end up low with grain based mashes. I am using Brewersfriend, as you suggested, actively but I am still surprised by the way that the PH drops so quickly when I ferment. My way of approaching it is not to nuke the water, it rather to try to narrow down how I can handle it with the water I have. Good ole Stockholm water.

But I appreciate your suggestions and concern. /Pal

The problem is, at least in the USA, that the water utility takes our very good limestone well water and adds buffers to it to prevent pipe corrosion. So much so, that you can't get a proper pH for enzymes to function without adding ~ 16 oz (450ml) of 88% lactic acid to a 25 gal mash in my locale.
Obviously, you don't have that problem. Your problem is that your water doesn't have enough buffering capacity. Your answer requires that you add enough buffer. But, without either starting with a known profile or sending your water in to a lab for testing, you don't know.

I understand & sympathize with you trying to capture the "terroir" of your water, but once you add additives, that is out-the-window, gone. Then you have the "terroir" of oyster shells (Chesapeake bay! ).

[PalCabral]

I understand & sympathize with you trying to capture the "terroir" of your water, but once you add additives, that is out-the-window, gone. Then you have the "terroir" of oyster shells (Chesapeake bay! ).

Fair point, Bee! I bet they make great beer in Chesapeake Bay!

But I do know my water profile. The water here is good and only need a little tweaking.
Ca2 Mg2 Na Cl SO4'2 HCO3
-----------------------------------------
25.0 4.0 11.0 14.0 44.0 55.000
PH: 8.

I tend only to adjust Mg and SO4 by adding Epsom salt and CA and HCO3 by adding chalk (CaCO3).

[shadylane]

The pH control for mashing and fermentation are different.
When mashing with malt the pH needs to be in a narrow range and minerals play a major role in mash efficiency.
For fermenting not so much, mostly all that's needed is enough minerals to keep the yeast fed and avoiding having the pH drop too far.

[Yummyrum]

Orpheus , the teaspoon or so of citric acid that is added to invert sugar may be causing you issues . However , I would never worry about how my fermentation was going an hour after adding yeast , it’s just too soon .
Another thought is that boiling during inverting the sugar will remove oxygen so it is important , just like any wash , to stir the crap out of it before adding yeast to introduce heaps of oxygen that the yeast will need to initially build the colony . You aren’t just mixing in the extra cold water but adding Oxygen.

On that theme , I have recently been using a pump during the first 6-12 hours when the yeast multiply . It pumps the wash out of the bottom and splashes it back on top . As an added advantage , it keeps the fermentation in suspension and aids mixing .

I have found that recent fermentations are finishing quicker and sugar washes not needing as much , if any shells .

This is it on a Rum wash , but I do it on the Right hand barrel for Shadys Sugar shine too .

Incidentally , the Domestos Bleach is never used in the fermenters , nust used in benches and barrel over flows to stop mould growth .

[PalCabral]

On that theme , I have recently been using a pump during the first 6-12 hours when the yeast multiply . It pumps the wash out of the bottom and splashes it back on top . As an added advantage , it keeps the fermentation in suspension and aids mixing .

I have found that recent fermentations are finishing quicker and sugar washes not needing as much , if any shells .

This is it on a Rum wash , but I do it on the Right hand barrel for Shadys Sugar shine too .

What you’ve got there is a wort circulation system perfect for when you’re sparging the mash, Yummy. But I am sure it will do wonders for adding oxygen to the ferment during the yeast lag phase.

I got a paint mixer that I run with a drill in the wash before pitching. It creates a vortex in the tun and produces so much oxygen, there’s like a carpet of foam on top after I’m done. After that I tend to leave the rest to sacharomyces, I dont even bother to shake the fermenter during the lag phase anymore, 6-12 hours later the ferment is usually orgasmic! My whiskey washes ferment out in three days, the rums in five days.

You are right about the citric acid being the culprit in the inverted sugar. Must be.

[NZChris]

To oxygenate and agitate at the start, I put an aquarium pump in the headspace with a weighted air stone at the bottom. Once the cover has gone on and the O2 in the headspace has been displaced by CO2, it is agitating by recycling the CO2.

[Saltbush Bill]

I squirt the cold water into the fermenter under pressure, that's all of the oxygen mine ever need or get.
As for Rum, as time goes by I care less and less about adding to much oxygen to the wash before pitching yeast, there is nothing wrong with a slow Rum wash.

[PalCabral]

I squirter the cold water into the fermenter under pressure, that's all of the oxygen mine ever need or get.
As for Rums as time goes by I care less and less about adding to much oxygen to the wash before pitching yeast, there is nothing wrong with a slow Rum wash.

I've read several posts about rums fermenting for 2 weeks, maybe more. I've always considered this to be because baker's yeast is being used, since that's practically the only time my ferments take over a week. Then I read a post about how to develop more esters in rum and it mentioned longer fermentation times. Is this one reason why you're not hurrying/worrying about the fermentation time, Bill?

I am always in a hurry, I admit, and when a wort/wash is on its' second week of fermentation I am getting frustrated. I realize my lack of patience is being tested in this hobby.

[Saltbush Bill]

Under pitching, cooler ferment temps, less oxygen at the start, all can contribute to slower ferments.

[NZChris]

Using bread yeast, I've had rum washes go dead in 72 hours. Regardless of how long the ferment takes, I give them another six days to develop more esters before I run them.

Be careful when resting if you've been putting crushed shell in the fermenter. Once the ferment goes dead there is nothing to stop the pH going too high and wrecking your wash.