What is your preferred mash gravity for a Bourbon or Rye?

[PalCabral]

Good Easter Sunday, distillers!

I am curious where the members on the forum try to land gravity when mashing all grain Bourbons and Ryes. I was asked by a fellow member why I was aiming so high and I had no better response than that it fits my process. I realize I don't actually know.

Me: when mashing for Bourbon I've been aiming for a starting gravity at 1.070-1.075, which would land me a fermented wash at about 9-9.5% abv. The higher the better, kind of, but within limits obviously. But I realize this is just me hitting a spot that I fancy, not based on any data or advice. Looking at the true and tested stuff, rarely do we share or advice on gravity. Neither do the youtubers out there. We're mostly interested in the kilos of raw material and in the distilling, not much about what's between mashing and distilling. So there's not much to go on either as for guidelines.

So I am putting the question out there: What is your target Bourbon or Rye mash gravity? Single malt?

Is the foaming characteristics of Rye something that alters your recipe?

[greggn]

I've been aiming for a final gravity (FG) at 1.070-1.075,

That would be your starting gravity (SG).

[Bolverk]

I target SG 1.065 FG 1.010

Edit to add: i only use malted grain. If I were using extra enzymes I'd expect lower than 1.010

[PalCabral]

That would be your starting gravity (SG).

Yes, I do get your point. Will fix for clarity! Thanks!

[shadylane]

I try for a starting gravity of 1.060 - 1.065.
The FG depends on how efficient the mash was.
With malt only, I'm happy if it drops to 1.010 ish.
With enzymes it often drops to slightly below 1.000

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

I try for a starting gravity of 1.060 - 1.065.
The FG depends on how efficient the mash was.
With malt only, I'm happy if it drops to 1.010 ish.
With enzymes it often drops to slightly below 1.000

This^

[Ridgeback816]

I try for a starting gravity of 1.060 - 1.065.
The FG depends on how efficient the mash was.
With malt only, I'm happy if it drops to 1.010 ish.
With enzymes it often drops to slightly below 1.000

[Homebrewer11777]

Interested in responses. Believe it was my comment you mentioned. I've been hitting 1.060-1.070 and thinking I might already be a bit higher than is ideal.

[bilgriss]

Pretty much the same. 1.060-1.065.
Below that range, alcohol percentage is lower and opportunistic bacteria can more easily take over. Yield suffers. But you can get a good, clean, useable ferment much lower.
Above that range, it starts getting more difficult to get a clean ferment where yeast isn't stressed that will also finish out at 1.00 or lower. But if you take care, have the right nutrients and the right quantity of the right yeast, you can get good ferments at higher gravity as well, but it gets easier to stall a ferment and leave residual sugar.

Numerous people probably find success at higher or lower gravity, so there's no one right answer, but there's a reason many of us have settled near this range.

[jonnys_spirit]

Approximately 2lbs grain per gallon is in the preferred gravity zone for me. Give or take.

Cheers,
j

[subbrew]

I have been using 2.25lb of grain per gallon of water (90# in 40 gallons of water) 70 to 80% feed corn (cracked or flaked milled to course meal) and the rest malted barley, specialty barley, wheat, rolled oats or rolled rye in various proportions. This gives a consistent 1.062 to 1.067 SG. I use enzymes and get 1.000 or few points below for FG. That gives distillers beer of 8.5% give or take a tenth. Happy with the results so don't intend to experiment going higher or lower. Only have enough years left to experiment with different grain bills at the same target gravities.

[PalCabral]

Interested in responses. Believe it was my comment you mentioned. I've been hitting 1.060-1.070 and thinking I might already be a bit higher than is ideal.

Yes, your comment got me questioning my thinking. The best thing about discussions are how they can make you see something you thought was crystal clear in another light. Thanks!

I didn't want to "out" you, but yes, you poked me in the right place

[PalCabral]

Approximately 2lbs grain per gallon is in the preferred gravity zone for me. Give or take.

Cheers,
j

When I put these number into Brewer's Friend I get a surprisingly low SG, Jonny, 1.053 with an 75% efficiency, which would equate to 6.8% abv beer after fermentation, given you ferment out. If your mashing efficiency is 100%, you'd be around 1.072. My guess is that your mashing efficiency is more close to 100% than 75%?

[Homebrewer11777]

90% efficiency is probably realistic if you are fermenting on grain. Brewers Friend would be thinking about efficiency in terms of conversion efficiency + lautering efficiency. If you ferment on the grain I think you lautering efficiency would be 100%.

[Tammuz]

Rye that I've tasted and enjoyed I was told it went in at 1.055

[jonnys_spirit]

Approximately 2lbs grain per gallon is in the preferred gravity zone for me. Give or take.

Cheers,
j

When I put these number into Brewer's Friend I get a surprisingly low SG, Jonny, 1.053 with an 75% efficiency, which would equate to 6.8% abv beer after fermentation, given you ferment out. If your mashing efficiency is 100%, you'd be around 1.072. My guess is that your mashing efficiency is more close to 100% than 75%?

I haven’t computed my efficiency and I might use a bit more than 2lbs/gallon but as I get up to 2.5-3#/gallon the mash becomes too thick to work with for my comfort. A large batch ferment in a 50g blue hdpe barrel for me yields about 2.5-3g at 60% barrel strength. That includes recycling feints, topping up the spirit run with fresh ferment and two strips.

Cheers,
-j

[Bee]

YLAY seems to give me a functionally higher "OG" than enzymes or malt. I guess it has to do with TLAY being able to deal with coarser grain grinds.
No matter what the enzyme source is, 2.25lbs/gal seems to be about the upper limit due to the methods I have for dealing with the mash, no matter what the grain bill is. Mostly straining concerns, but also yield. Seems like much more grain soaks up more water & alcohol than I can recover.

I could see going lower than that given some detestable grain bill. For mostly corn it's OK.

[shadylane]

Me: when mashing for Bourbon I've been aiming for a starting gravity at 1.070-1.075, which would land me a fermented wash at about 9-9.5% abv. The higher the better, kind of, but within limits obviously.

A lower SG than 1.070-1.075 would be better. If a mash was that high, I'd dilute it before fermenting.
Personally I think 1.065 would be the max and something around 1.045 would be minimum.
Instead of chasing after a higher SG, try for a lower FG. In other words, figure out how to make a yeast happy mash.

An example would be 1.065 to 1.010 = 7.1% and 1.050 to .995 = 7.1%

[Tammuz]

Not that it has to do with starting gravity but a tip I got from A. Bishop was to make sure the distillate comes out cool around 68-72° For rye. This causes it to be a little smoother without the pepper spice.

[shadylane]

Not that it has to do with starting gravity but a tip I got from A. Bishop was to make sure the distillate comes out cool around 68-72° For rye. This causes it to be a little smoother without the pepper spice.

I'll argue with that.
I started a new post so as to not highjack this one that's about mash gravity.
viewtopic.php?t=94613

[Stags]

Approximately 2lbs grain per gallon is in the preferred gravity zone for me. Give or take.

Cheers,
j

+1 for me. 2lbs with a little leeway, gravity will be what it will be, run/age/drink/repeat.

[PalCabral]

A lower SG than 1.070-1.075 would be better. If a mash was that high, I'd dilute it before fermenting.
Personally I think 1.065 would be the max and something around 1.045 would be minimum.
Instead of chasing after a higher SG, try for a lower FG. In other words, figure out how to make a yeast happy mash.

An example would be 1.065 to 1.010 = 7.1% and 1.050 to .995 = 7.1%

Thanks for the advise, Shady. My all grain ferments, as opposed to sugar ferments, have been fully fermenting out, down to 1.000, as of yet, so I am more concerned about flavor impact, mash efficiency, which is notably lower in my case, and of course the economy of it. And, for Rye, if a higher SG with a subsequent high FG after ferment will increase foaming in the boiler and puking.

[Homebrewer11777]

My beer brewing experience agrees with @Shadylane 's thoughts above. Off flavors from stressed yeast can be significant flaw in beer and are quite commonly seen in products from new homebrewers. Recipe design is actually pretty easy, learning to run a quality fermentation seems to take more time for people getting into that hobby.

And everything about running a quality fermentation gets harder as gravity increases due to need to keep the yeast working in a soup of their increasingly concentrated waste products.

[bilgriss]

Best flavor is a combination of your grain ratios and fermentation conditions. Yeast produce objectionable flavors and increase heads and tails if you stress 'em. Shady is right on. You can increase the ABV of a ferment and still get the same hearts cut, if you have to toss more. Keep the yeast happy!

Foaming/puking is related largely to the amount of protein in solution that hasn't been neutered yet by boiling. So starting slow and keeping it slow is your best defense. Different grains have different protein contributions, with corn being pretty low. Increasing the amount of a grain increases its protein contribution. Anti-foam agents or oils help break surface tension and mitigate it somewhat.

[PalCabral]

Best flavor is a combination of your grain ratios and fermentation conditions. Yeast produce objectionable flavors and increase heads and tails if you stress 'em. Shady is right on. You can increase the ABV of a ferment and still get the same hearts cut, if you have to toss more. Keep the yeast happy!

Foaming/puking is related largely to the amount of protein in solution that hasn't been neutered yet by boiling. So starting slow and keeping it slow is your best defense. Different grains have different protein contributions, with corn being pretty low. Increasing the amount of a grain increases its protein contribution. Anti-foam agents or oils help break surface tension and mitigate it somewhat.

Rye is known for foaming and so far my biggest rye amount in any beer has been below 20%, so of course I haven't had any issues with it. But when the mash bill contains 60-80% of rye, mostly unmalted rye, I am not sure if my dollop of butter will help. And running a stripping run slow makes it into a long term commitment, that's for sure. Do you have any anti-foam products you would recommend? Here the most common product is VinoFerm Anti-Foam, which is more for reducing foaming in mashing and mash boiling. I reckon it could work for distillation too but butter is cheaper.