Charentais

[Alzahra888]

Its been covered sparingly in different places. If you allow me to open a new topic here to refresh discussions. I want to share a video and recall certain mentions about preheater sizes and methods for controlling vapors.

My only information is from HD and from all the discussions I have read, this video strikes me as odd for two reasons. The preheater has no PRV, nor a condenser. Also, the boiler is smaller than the preheater. I wonder what words this community might have to better consider this lovely looking charentais.

Other additional information from the seller:

The equipment consists of:
Copper heating pot with soldered drain tube and brass stopper;
Locking / unlocking brass fittings between the lid, the gooseneck tube and the condensing recipient to prevent the escape of vapors;
Onion-shaped preheating pot complete with wine level indicator (acrylic tube), brass tap and connector;
Condensing recipient with a very tight tube (longer condensing coil than in other stills), water inlet and outlet and inverted funnel lid (decorative);
2 metal supports for the condenser and pre-heating pot;

[Bolverk]

The preheater being larger is probably an esthetic thing, but in reality, it could be the same size if not a little smaller than the boiler. The only reason we oversize the boiler is to allow for head space, and since the contents of the preheater won't be boiling you don't necessarily have to size for that.

No vent/prv is used because the vapor is not run through the preheater after the preheater gets up to temp. Typically 145f, right before heads would start to vaporize.

What this design is missing the the preheater therm and the bypass.

You can see it here wrapping around the back of the preheater in these pictures

In the absence of a bypass the surface area of the tube in the preheater is calculated to only have a max potential heating capacity to preheat the charge in the time taken to fully finish the boiler run.

[Salt Must Flow]

The preheater has no PRV

It appears to have a manometer which also serves as a sight glass.

Also, the boiler is smaller than the preheater.

Actually I'd bet that the preheater is smaller in volume than the boiler. Look at its shape. They may both be the same diameter, but the preheater is tear drop shaped and shorter so it must have a smaller volume.

[NZChris]

Very pretty, but no attempt to improve on the original design.

Mine is ugly and more efficient, no bypass, the preheater is insulated and has its own automated Liebig to take care of any condensate if it starts producing. My vessels are the same size because that just happens to be what I found at the time. A larger main boiler would be better when running a pukey wash.

[NZChris]

BTW, the running instructions in the video have been written up by a non-distiller who has no experience with running any stills and does not understand what the Charentais distillation protocol is.

[SaltyStaves]

The manometer seems to be the only way that Portuguese designed preheater is vented. The design looks to be fairly inefficient if it is just a straight through pipe as shown in the cut-away demonstration of the video.
That being said, I would not want a preheater that is smaller than the boiler if I have no way of safely collecting from the preheater.

I much prefer that my preheater is 1:1 and has a condenser. It is efficient enough to produce (depending on the charge) and I have peace of mind that I won't have boiling wash suddenly jetting out of an open vertical tube, or worse, a manual bypass valve that I forget to use...

[Yummyrum]

Pretty video , but it forgets the step where you drain the boiler before refilling . I’d also kill the burner not just turn it down . I’d imagine that the drain tap being close to the burner gets pretty hot . I’d also imagine that with a flame still under the boiler , there is a fare chance of getting a charred bottom as the last dregs drain before the next charge goes in .

[Alzahra888]

Glad to see comments.

Sorry my dyslectic. Their preheaters are always half the size of their boilers. I thought I’d read NZChris wanted it rather larger than the boiler but now I understand that’s not strictly necessary.

I asked about emptying boiler between refills, and about pressure control. Replies were not well informed despite referring first to their craftsmen. I guess it was too much to ask for a distiller’s input.

Pressure I suppose, however, probably could not even be an issue with just a simple through-arm and no twist or coil in the preheater and therefore not surprised you consider inefficient.

Actually my first request was just to purchase the preheater but if the video is faithful it hardly seems worth it.

When considering build options, I was curious if I could find operator’s notes, maybe even in old or rather middle french, something along the lines of Yummy’s continuous stripper post viewtopic.php?t=76761

But the joke seems to be on me and i suspect early developers kept their trade secrets to themselves.

[NZChris]

Their build and video gives away that they are trying to cash in on an old design without doing much research. I would guess that nobody in their employ has ever run a Charentais still or knows how to run one or build one. Caveat emptor.

[jonnys_spirit]

An RC condenser at the top of the pre-heater is also an option and may be easier if you don't mind taking fores from the main boiler so you only need to manage a single collection output.

In my mind, this is really ideal for a continuous-batch stripping approach where you might want to strip three charges in one sitting under highest power and reduce your heatup time for each strip charge. In a spirit run scenario I see it as less useful but I guess it could also work but it's going to be a long day with multiple spirit runs back to back.

Cheers,
jonny

[Bolverk]

I'm honestly a little surprised the whole Charantrais style preheater never really took off in other spirits. Excluding continuous type stils, the only other still i can think of that has a preheater is a 3 chamber.

[NZChris]

But the joke seems to be on me and i suspect early developers kept their trade secrets to themselves.

The joke will be on you if you believe everything they tell you. There are no trade secrets to running these stills, but there are people who are ignorant of how Charentais distilling is done who are happy to make youtubes and sell you stuff.

The spirit run, (bonne chauffe), does not require a preheater. If I leave the preheater connected, I often fill it with water, but sometimes leave it empty with the lid off.

If anyone tries to tell you that you can make fine product without doing a bonne chauffe run, (as they suggest in the video), ignore their advice and do more research to find out how to do it properly.

[Alzahra888]

The ambivalence of syntax always hides traps. The joke is on me that the beauty of reports such as that referenced above in my post cannot be predictably found in any annals or archives. But luck is only in the digging. Around the next bend we shall see what our journys encounter.

[PalCabral]

As far as I know the alambic charentais is really a design by the moors that was put in practice and enhanced by the Portuguese, used for wine fortification. The Portuguse used the moor's name for the still, al-inbīq but spelled it Alambique. Later, Dutch wine traders found the still in Portugal and brought it back to The Netherlands, where they started using it. Dutch wine traders bought the thin wines from Charentais for distilling at home but quickly realized it was cheaper to distill the wines locally and only transport the brandewijn, the burnt wine, back to The Netherlands. This is how the alambic charentais ended up in Cognac. Neither the still nor the name is actually French or from Charentais. History is funny.

[NormandieStill]

This last post got me thinking so I went to have a look. While it's true that the romance language name of alambic is derived from Arabic, the still itself is a mix of Arabic and Greek designs. And the addition of the preheater seems to be (At least from the pictures I've seen) a French invention. It's called a "chauffe-vin" and while they're pretty universal, it's not an essential part of the charentais still. The form being the key thing (As best as I can tell). I'm still trying to find a book (or books) which document this more fully.

[PalCabral]

And the addition of the preheater seems to be (At least from the pictures I've seen) a French invention. It's called a "chauffe-vin" and while they're pretty universal, it's not an essential part of the charentais still. The form being the key thing (As best as I can tell). I'm still trying to find a book (or books) which document this more fully.

This is very true, Normandie. The Chauffe-vin is an addition to the Alambic Charentais that has been applied by some, but not all, Cocgnac producers. The Alambic Charentais is a still with a large onion head and a swan's neck to the PC. It seems that a lot of forum members have fallen for the marketing "trick" made by a still producer to sell an pot still including a Chauffe-vin as "the Alambic Charentais" still. Never believe all the nonsense you read in the marketing pamphlets.