"Tornado Plate"

[LWTCS]

Fella here did this.
Its cool. Much of the ancillary stuff I see looks mostly familiar.

[LWTCS]

Another view

[LWTCS]

And this.

[Yummyrum]

A very cool looking plate design Larry .
The rotating tornado effect makes a lot of sense as far as inceasing Liquid gas interaction and keeping it low .

But looking at the promo video , unless I got it wrong , he says the new plate design means the height of a column can be reduced up to 75% yet that still looks about the normal proportions I’d have expected from a Perf plate of bubble cap still . It does not look 75% shorter . Not even 50% shorter

He also talks about getting 90-92% ABV off that 5 plate still . Most can pull 92 % off a 4 plate Perf plate . Mind you , he did not mention Power input or take iff rate for comparison
What am I missing ?

Not going to mention the garden hose into the collection jar

[Bolverk]

Im not buying the claims... but its interesting AF!

[LWTCS]

A very cool looking plate design Larry .
The rotating tornado effect makes a lot of sense as far as inceasing Liquid gas interaction and keeping it low .

But looking at the promo video , unless I got it wrong , he says the new plate design means the height of a column can be reduced up to 75% yet that still looks about the normal proportions I’d have expected from a Perf plate of bubble cap still . It does not look 75% shorter . Not even 50% shorter

He also talks about getting 90-92% ABV off that 5 plate still . Most can pull 92 % off a 4 plate Perf plate . Mind you , he did not mention Power input or take iff rate for comparison
What am I missing ?

Not going to mention the garden hose into the collection jar

100% on all of your observations yummy.
The abv is not particularly special.
There are some things about physics that you just can't hack.
Plus Im a doodad mift that the dude contacted me to buy his idea when I see all kinds of replication on his videos.

[LWTCS]

Bunch a fellers on here could whip those plates up. And maybe would have back in the day when cool factor could influence the skilled builders. Thinking about Mashrookie specifically......

[shadylane]

Bunch a fellers on here could whip those plates up.

Damn near sounds like a challenge.
But it's been above 90f here and I ain't going to fire up the torch just to verify wither or not there's an advantage to making the liquid spin on a sieve plate, Maybe instead I'll head scratch and attempt to draw out a pic.
I did notice the inlet of the downcomer looked to be large and tall enough to hold more liquid than normal and the trap on the downcomer was very big in diameter but shallow. But then I'm not sure how the plate hydraulics would act under these conditions.

Long story short, I'm not drunk enough to wrap my head around the pro's and con's yet.

Mostly I'm seeing cons.
Having only the outer ring of the sieve plate used would really fuck up the hole to open area.
Forcing the liquid to spin would pile it up on the wall and vapor being lighter would take the easiest way out to the middle of the vortex instead of mixing with the liquid and redistilling.

[Yummyrum]

I like the wide weir style in the centre . Big capture area means less chance of flooding .

I struggled to see the direction of the holes in the caps but I think they point in and angled to create vortex

IMG_2707.jpeg

Forcing the liquid to spin would pile it up on the wall and vapor being lighter would take the easiest way out to the middle of the vortex instead of mixing with the liquid and redistilling.

I agree Shady . I wonder if the caps were in from the edge and the holes angled towards where the liquid is spinning , it might work better .

IMG_2708.jpeg

But then is a vortex of water not spinning in the middle , ….. I get confused between centrifugal forces and the things that make twisters .

[Saltbush Bill]

Where is Googe ? this is right up his ally.
Set playback speed to 0.25 on "Tornado plates 2 " and you have time to see what is really going on.
I'd be interested to know just how much energy he's putting into that boil to get that kind of spin speed.

[Yummyrum]

Where is Googe ? this is right up his ally.

Recon

[Chauncey]

I think alternating hole placement to create two opposing tornadoes would create more opportunities for vapors to intermingle

Just a thought

[LWTCS]

I don't like the DC in the center. The liquid from above will have a greater opportunity to fall directly into a DC below and completely bypass the phase change cycle that would otherwise occur.

Then , visually it looks like the open area for through put seems limited.

[Bolverk]

A more traditional bubble cap DC with a flow director below to offset the over flow

[Saltbush Bill]

The liquid from above will have a greater opportunity to fall directly into a DC below and completely bypass the phase change cycle that would otherwise occur.

That was one of my first thoughts.

[LWTCS]

So one of my other questions is whether or not this plate actually promotes vapor / liquid mingling ? Or actually makes it easier to promote vapor bypassing.

I've referenced this experiment before, but years ago Harry posted a video of one of his builds that illustrated how vapor exiting his bubble cap would actually blow/force all of the liquid away from the vapor discharge of the cap. This behavior allowed the vapor to have minimal interaction with the liquid and more or less allow uncondensed vapor to shoot up to the next plate level without going through any phase change cycle.

Back to this dudes plate. So all of that aggressive behavior on the plate reminds me of aeration. Aeration as in gaps of air in between liquid droplets. Gaps of air at the bottom of the liquid bed and gaps of air at the top. The kind of gaps of air that maybe allow uncondensed alcoholic vapor to pass to the next level, therefore bypassing a phase change cycle?
Gas bubbles should collapse before they get to the surface right?

I can't help but to wonder if slowing down that plate action a bit wouldn't do a better job of mingling?
After all, the dude's ABVs are really not that impressive.

[G0DAX3]

A very cool looking plate design Larry .
The rotating tornado effect makes a lot of sense as far as inceasing Liquid gas interaction and keeping it low .

But looking at the promo video , unless I got it wrong , he says the new plate design means the height of a column can be reduced up to 75% yet that still looks about the normal proportions I’d have expected from a Perf plate of bubble cap still . It does not look 75% shorter . Not even 50% shorter

He also talks about getting 90-92% ABV off that 5 plate still . Most can pull 92 % off a 4 plate Perf plate . Mind you , he did not mention Power input or take iff rate for comparison
What am I missing ?

Not going to mention the garden hose into the collection jar

you catch most of my concern.

too many footage and lack of fact imo.

in the two first vid we can see what look like a vortex, in ducing vortex into liquid is really simple but did they really get the vapeur pressure required from, alcool vapeur ( with safe). the vapeur pressure is directly corelate to the vapeur production so by the heat provided. did this high vapeur rate did not throw more water steam in the column so more congenere to, wich would need to be extract ,assuming by the vortex it self? And what about in the condenser ,did you see the leak in the vid? is it came from an overflow in the condenser, so potentially high abv alcool?(warning) or from a to high cooling liqiud pressure in the shotgun, required to treat all the steam comming trew?

i cant really see the same vortex in the last vid. and if they re no vortex, it's just buble plate, no ?

he keep arguing about patented, as it is he could safely talk about the science that made the " vortex distillation" 10x more efficient, and in what? higher abv, cleaner NS, volume rate production, watt by volume?

GodAxe

[G0DAX3]

So one of my other questions is whether or not this plate actually promotes vapor / liquid mingling ? Or actually makes it easier to promote vapor bypassing.

I've referenced this experiment before, but years ago Harry posted a video of one of his builds that illustrated how vapor exiting his bubble cap would actually blow/force all of the liquid away from the vapor discharge of the cap. This behavior allowed the vapor to have minimal interaction with the liquid and more or less allow uncondensed vapor to shoot up to the next plate level without going through any phase change cycle.

Back to this dudes plate. So all of that aggressive behavior on the plate reminds me of aeration. Aeration as in gaps of air in between liquid droplets. Gaps of air at the bottom of the liquid bed and gaps of air at the top. The kind of gaps of air that maybe allow uncondensed alcoholic vapor to pass to the next level, therefore bypassing a phase change cycle?
Gas bubbles should collapse before they get to the surface right?

I can't help but to wonder if slowing down that plate action a bit wouldn't do a better job of mingling?
After all, the dude's ABVs are really not that impressive.

i didnt think its based on liquid/vapor mingling, but more on pressure defficiency and particule collision.
in a vortex, the centrifuge force push morre particules to the outside realm, this higher particule density with a higher velocity favorise particule collision, more collision result in a better thermal mass exchange betwen component. ( thermodinamic)
in the same time higher particule density result in a higher pressure in the outside realm generating a low pressure zone in the center (Bernouli). as any systeme trend to stabilise, as long as you input forced to the vortex the inner lower pressure zone should forced drain the upper plate.( ideal gaz laws)
Active reflux without heat extraction, better effiency?

every thing is purely theoric, and hope i have been able to well translate my mind.

GodAxe

[LWTCS]

So one of my other questions is whether or not this plate actually promotes vapor / liquid mingling ? Or actually makes it easier to promote vapor bypassing.

I've referenced this experiment before, but years ago Harry posted a video of one of his builds that illustrated how vapor exiting his bubble cap would actually blow/force all of the liquid away from the vapor discharge of the cap. This behavior allowed the vapor to have minimal interaction with the liquid and more or less allow uncondensed vapor to shoot up to the next plate level without going through any phase change cycle.

Back to this dudes plate. So all of that aggressive behavior on the plate reminds me of aeration. Aeration as in gaps of air in between liquid droplets. Gaps of air at the bottom of the liquid bed and gaps of air at the top. The kind of gaps of air that maybe allow uncondensed alcoholic vapor to pass to the next level, therefore bypassing a phase change cycle?
Gas bubbles should collapse before they get to the surface right?

I can't help but to wonder if slowing down that plate action a bit wouldn't do a better job of mingling?
After all, the dude's ABVs are really not that impressive.

i didnt think its based on liquid/vapor mingling, but more on pressure defficiency and particule collision.
in a vortex, the centrifuge force push morre particules to the outside realm, this higher particule density with a higher velocity favorise particule collision, more collision result in a better thermal mass exchange betwen component. ( thermodinamic)
in the same time higher particule density result in a higher pressure in the outside realm generating a low pressure zone in the center (Bernouli). as any systeme trend to stabilise, as long as you input forced to the vortex the inner lower pressure zone should forced drain the upper plate.( ideal gaz laws)
Active reflux without heat extraction, better effiency?

every thing is purely theoric, and hope i have been able to well translate my mind.

GodAxe

I think I understand what you are saying?
Taking that into consideration, perhaps the demonstration on the video requires even more velocity?
As mentioned, the abv is not at all extraordinary.

[LWTCS]

I feel I remember the forum member DogsMaster ( or something like that) presenting a distillation system that was predicated upon vortex technology? Not sure if he hung out here or over at AD back in the day.
Anyone remember that?

[LWTCS]

This from the internet:

according to ScienceDirect.com. This indicates that vortex distillation might not be a standalone alternative to fractional distillation for mixtures with close boiling points, but rather a modification or enhancement to improve the performance of existing distillation processes.

In summary
For separating liquids with close boiling points and achieving high purity, fractional distillation is the preferred and more effective method.

[G0DAX3]

This from the internet:

according to ScienceDirect.com. This indicates that vortex distillation might not be a standalone alternative to fractional distillation for mixtures with close boiling points, but rather a modification or enhancement to improve the performance of existing distillation processes.

In summary
For separating liquids with close boiling points and achieving high purity, fractional distillation is the preferred and more effective method.

didnt look foward but accordling to what you says. the summary should be:

a plated column will perform better than a vortex flute. but a vortex plated column should perform best.

and its what this tordando plate is arging

[LWTCS]

This from the internet:

according to ScienceDirect.com. This indicates that vortex distillation might not be a standalone alternative to fractional distillation for mixtures with close boiling points, but rather a modification or enhancement to improve the performance of existing distillation processes.

In summary
For separating liquids with close boiling points and achieving high purity, fractional distillation is the preferred and more effective method.

didnt look foward but accordling to what you says. the summary should be:

a plated column will perform better than a vortex flute. but a vortex plated column should perform best.

and its what this tordando plate is arging

The argument has little merit unless the production speed relative to heat input is superior.

My take away applies to continuous distillation where by a beer column could utilize a correctly designed vortex system and a stand alone finishing column would utilize the fractional aspect. Just thinking out loud is all.

[Bolverk]

My take away applies to continuous distillation where by a beer column could utilize a correctly designed vortex system and a stand alone finishing column would utilize the fractional aspect. Just thinking out loud is all.

I'm struggling to how this would work in a stripping column... Especially with a grain in beer.

[Saltbush Bill]

Sure it's been patented, but so have many other ideas.
Does it work better?......I don't think I need the brain strain.

[LWTCS]

My take away applies to continuous distillation where by a beer column could utilize a correctly designed vortex system and a stand alone finishing column would utilize the fractional aspect. Just thinking out loud is all.

I'm struggling to how this would work in a stripping column... Especially with a grain in beer.

I don't know either.
But when I read about vortex distillation its seems to read "stripping" rather than precise separation.

[LWTCS]

Sure it's been patented, but so have many other ideas.
Does it work better?......I don't think I need the brain strain.

I really don't think this concept not being previously patented is an oversight by the petroleum industry?

They have had a very big war chest for a long time and have poured an enormous amount of money into R&D. Big Oil scientists know pretty much everything there is to know about distillation with respect to the efficiencies associated with the separation of mixtures.
If this type of plate were an advantage, I feel Big Oil would have been using it for the past 50 or 60 years or so already?

The dude's plate is otherwise cool to look at.

[Bolverk]

But when I read about vortex distillation its seems to read "stripping" rather than precise separation.

The challenge is see with it as a stripping is that it would through spin all the heavy solids to the outside edge where the drain is in the center youd end up filling the plate with grain and plugging all the ports that make the vortex.

Could totally see using it as a show piece for a vodka still though

[shadylane]

I wonder how the reflux gets into the centrally located downcomer when the reflux is spinning around the wall?

[shadylane]

The top edge of the vortex looks like it would be close to the jets being used to impart a spin on the plate above.
I wounder how this would effect entrainment compared to a perf or cap plate?
It would seem to me the tornado plate column would need to be taller.