PC question

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

System:
4" Stripping column, two 5500W elements.
Looked at the Calculators but couldn't find one that pertained to my problem.
Right now I use 11kw for heat up, about 20-30 mins on 25gals. Once producing, I must turn off an element, and then I can only go 60% power because I only have a 4" SS shot gun PC. I can add a 2"/1" liebig 24" long that allows me to run with one element at 100% and the other at about 10% or both about 60%.
I have found a good deal on 4"×12" shotguns and I am wondering how many feet of 4" SGs I would need to knock down about 17000W because i am going to add a third element. This is just for the Stripping side. I will eventually up grade the Spirit but can't afford it now.
It currently takes about 5 hours to strip 25 gals. It's over 100° in the shed during the day and in the 90s at night. I'd like to be able to do the strip in just a couple hours by by maximizing the system.
Thanks for listening.

[Salt Must Flow]

I strip using 11000W and use two 2" shotgun condensers connected together like shown below. Each shotgun is approx 24" long.

Stripping 04.jpg

If I want to strip using 5500W, I'll just use one of the 2" shotgun condensers.

[Steve Broady]

Do you have any idea what the surface area is on those 4” shotguns? Or how many tubes, at what diameter?

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Do you have any idea what the surface area is on those 4” shotguns? Or how many tubes, at what diameter?

My 4"×6" shotgun has seven 1/2" tubes.
The ones I'm looking to buy are 4"×12" with 7 - 1/2" tubes also.
They have 4"x24" shotguns but the want $2600 for just 1.
They have the 4x12 on sale for about $350 each.
Good price?

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

I strip using 11000W and use two 2" shotgun condensers connected together like shown below. Each shotgun is approx 24" long.


Stripping 04.jpg


If I want to strip using 5500W, I'll just use one of the 2" shotgun condensers.

I have a 2"×8" shotty I made years ago, it worked great on the 2" column with just a banjo burner. But on the 4" i gotta run just one element under 50% or I'm blowing vapors.
I mistakingly put 3/8" water in/out ports on it instead of 1/2". It's just to small for the new 4".
But thanks.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

I strip using 11000W and use two 2" shotgun condensers connected together like shown below. Each shotgun is approx 24" long.


Stripping 04.jpg


If I want to strip using 5500W, I'll just use one of the 2" shotgun condensers.

I have a 2"×8" shotty I made years ago, it worked great on the 2" column with just a banjo burner. But on the 4" i gotta run just one element under 50% or I'm blowing vapors.
I mistakingly put 3/8" water in/out ports on it instead of 1/2". It's just to small for the new 4".
Salt, is that a 2" or 4" column?

[shadylane]

My 4"×6" shotgun has seven 1/2" tubes.
The ones I'm looking to buy are 4"×12" with 7 - 1/2" tubes also.
They have 4"x24" shotguns but the want $2600 for just 1.
They have the 4x12 on sale for about $350 each.
Good price?

Hell no that aint a good price.

[Yummyrum]

7x 1/2” tubes can easily fit in my 2.5” shotty . It is just absolutely wasted space in a 4” . Sure , you can pump more water through it , but if the vapour is shooting through so fast , it hasn’t the dwell time to pull out the heat .
Stick as many tubes in a 4” as will fit . Then the vapour speed will drop dramatically and the condenser work so much better .

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

My 4"×6" shotgun has seven 1/2" tubes.
The ones I'm looking to buy are 4"×12" with 7 - 1/2" tubes also.
They have 4"x24" shotguns but the want $2600 for just 1.
They have the 4x12 on sale for about $350 each.
Good price?

Hell no that aint a good price.

Thanks Shady,
Looks like prices have come down. I just found a chimaman one for $295. Last I checked was a few months back.
The other one was heavy duty with 3/4" in/out and US made. I prefer to buy USA, but to be honest the China parts these days aren't that bad and a lot cheaper.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

I just rechecked, the US made one has 9 tubes.
But regardless of US or China made, do yall think I'll only need one 4x12 plus the 4x6, for 3 elements(17000W) or two 4x6s?
I plan on assembling a second 4" column for spirit/rectification next to it. Any ideas?

[shadylane]

7x 1/2” tubes can easily fit in my 2.5” shotty . It is just absolutely wasted space in a 4” . Sure , you can pump more water through it , but if the vapour is shooting through so fast , it hasn’t the dwell time to pull out the heat .
Stick as many tubes in a 4” as will fit . Then the vapour speed will drop dramatically and the condenser work so much better .

Here's a 2-1/2" shotgun dephleg I made years back that used five 1/2" ID tubes.
It would have been a tight fit but 9 tubes could have been used.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

7x 1/2” tubes can easily fit in my 2.5” shotty . It is just absolutely wasted space in a 4” . Sure , you can pump more water through it , but if the vapour is shooting through so fast , it hasn’t the dwell time to pull out the heat .
Stick as many tubes in a 4” as will fit . Then the vapour speed will drop dramatically and the condenser work so much better .

Yep Yummy, dwell time makes a big difference.
It could be alot more efficient but I'm just using off the shelf parts.

[shadylane]

I just rechecked, the US made one has 9 tubes.
But regardless of US or China made, do yall think I'll only need one 4x12 plus the 4x6, for 3 elements(17000W) or two 4x6s?
I plan on assembling a second 4" column for spirit/rectification next to it. Any ideas?

Just guessing, I don't think 18" of length is going to be near enough for that much power.
If you're handy at making stuff, DIY would be cheaper.
On a side note if you have a 25 gallon pot, somewhere around 8-10kw is the most power a clear wash can handle before it starts foaming up.

[SW_Shiner]

Wow thats a lot of knock down needed. I had a bit of a play with haggys shotgun calc, it reckons you should be good with about 60" of 4" condenser with 9x 1/2" tubes

[Salt Must Flow]

I strip using 11000W and use two 2" shotgun condensers connected together like shown below. Each shotgun is approx 24" long.


Stripping 04.jpg


If I want to strip using 5500W, I'll just use one of the 2" shotgun condensers.

I have a 2"×8" shotty I made years ago, it worked great on the 2" column with just a banjo burner. But on the 4" i gotta run just one element under 50% or I'm blowing vapors.
I mistakingly put 3/8" water in/out ports on it instead of 1/2". It's just to small for the new 4".
Salt, is that a 2" or 4" column?

It's a 4" in that pic.

The problem with that 2"x8" shotgun is that it's only 8" long. That's likely intended to be used as a dephlegmator not as a product condenser. Shotgun condensers are IDEAL for stripping. They just need to be long enough to have enough surface area to knock down the amount of power you intend to throw at it.

Each 2"x24" shotgun has seven 1/2" od copper pipes.

Shotgun Tubes.jpg

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

I just rechecked, the US made one has 9 tubes.
But regardless of US or China made, do yall think I'll only need one 4x12 plus the 4x6, for 3 elements(17000W) or two 4x6s?
I plan on assembling a second 4" column for spirit/rectification next to it. Any ideas?

Just guessing, I don't think 18" of length is going to be near enough for that much power.
If you're handy at making stuff, DIY would be cheaper.
On a side note if you have a 25 gallon pot, somewhere around 8-10kw is the most power a clear wash can handle before it starts foaming up.

With my arthritis my Fabricating days are over. Or I would.
I figured a3rd element would speed up heat up and then just run on two. Even if it puked I'm gonna put a slobber tank between the stripping column and the spirit side. It'll be after building the spirit side that iadd a 3rd element to the boiler.
That 3rd would cone in handy when steam mashing large batches.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Wow thats a lot of knock down needed. I had a bit of a play with haggys shotgun calc, it reckons you should be good with about 60" of 4" condenser with 9x 1/2" tubes

Thanks!

[Copperhead road]

They have 4"x24" shotguns but the want $2600 for just 1.
They have the 4x12 on sale for about $350 each.
Good price?

That is so expensive just for the condenser, are you sure that the $2600 did not come with a still as well.
Who was the Manufacturer ?

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

They have 4"x24" shotguns but the want $2600 for just 1.
They have the 4x12 on sale for about $350 each.
Good price?

That is so expensive just for the condenser, are you sure that the $2600 did not come with a still as well.
Who was the Manufacturer ?

Iwas wrong. When I just checked it was 36" and they are discontinued.

[MooseMan]

POPP if you have that much power available and are willing to spend the money on far less than ideal "off the shelf" parts, why don't you go talk nicely to Twisted Brick?

Using Haggy's calculator you could design a shotty that would knock down your 11kw without using obscene volumes of water and have the plates made by TB, or even, if you are really persuasive, the entire thing!?

[Yummyrum]

I’m still getting my head around 17kw of electricity in the garage
I’m pushing it to get 6kw . Very jealous POPP .

Just spit balling , but 6kw will get you around 12l/hr . So @17kw , you going to be stripping around 35l /h

Was at a mates place recently where we clocked 60l/h on his wood fire stripper . He was using 2” about 1.5m long with 3x 3/4” in it .

[MooseMan]

I’m still getting my head around 17kw of electricity in the garage
I’m pushing it to get 6kw . Very jealous POPP .

Just spit balling , but 6kw will get you around 12l/hr . So @17kw , you going to be stripping around 35l /h

Was at a mates place recently where we clocked 60l/h on his wood fire stripper . He was using 2” about 1.5m long with 3x 3/4” in it .

I'm also very jealous of that amount of power!

I have several of the 6kw elements that I'm using, and could easily add another port to my stripper.
I'd love to have a second 6kw for faster heat up, but I'd have to make serious changes to my leccy feed into the garage to run both!

I get 14l/HR out of my stripper with one 6kw element and NO heat loss from the boiler.

[NormandieStill]

My feed to the house is currently 6kW (I can upgrade by changing subscription without changing the cables). We scrape through despite having an electric car and despite my distilling. Anything about 12kW here is considered to be for a large house with all-electric heating. Much above that and the grid company strongly suggests rewiring to 3-phase!

[haggy]

Possum,

A 9 tube x 0.5" diam and 36" long tube length should do the job of 17kw stripping 10% wash and say a 20% expected heat loss. I assume these are stainless steel shotguns. The initial 57% abv vapor rate would be about 33 L/hr and that is probably not too high a vapor rate. About 4.2+ L/min cooling water are needed to condense the vapor plus another 1 L/min to subcool the condensate.

And a 9 tube x 0.5" diam and 24" tube length would need about 8+ L/hr cooling water flow rate, plus another 1.5 L/min for subcooling.

Not so good designs
A 7 tube x 0.5" diam and 18" long tube length should not do a good job. About 23 L/min cooling water needed.
A 7 tube x 0.5" diam and 24" long tube length should not do a good job. About 13 L/min cooling water needed.

Maybe this
A 7 tube x 0.5" diam and 36" long tube length can also do the job but vapor velocity is a little higher but should be ok. About 6+ L/min cooling water needed plus another 1+ L/min to subcool the condensate.

Compare this
Yummyrum's high flow rate of 60 L/hr into 3 x 0.75' diam tube 1.5m long shotgun has about the same vapor velocity as the 7 x 0.5" tubes above. So your 17 kw is ok with the 7 tube shotgun. I got about 9 L/min cooling water flow needed for Yummy's case.


Here are the Haggy Condenser Calculator results for the 9 tube SS shotgun.

Input Data

image.png

Results

image.png

Haggy

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

POPP if you have that much power available and are willing to spend the money on far less than ideal "off the shelf" parts, why don't you go talk nicely to Twisted Brick?

Using Haggy's calculator you could design a shotty that would knock down your 11kw without using obscene volumes of water and have the plates made by TB, or even, if you are really persuasive, the entire thing!?

Thanks

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

I’m still getting my head around 17kw of electricity in the garage
I’m pushing it to get 6kw . Very jealous POPP .

Just spit balling , but 6kw will get you around 12l/hr . So @17kw , you going to be stripping around 35l /h

Was at a mates place recently where we clocked 60l/h on his wood fire stripper . He was using 2” about 1.5m long with 3x 3/4” in it .

The shine shed is only about 50ft from the 200Amp power pole. I have 8/2 going to each controller. I'd only use all 3 element during heat up (16500W).

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Possum,

A 9 tube x 0.5" diam and 36" long tube length should do the job of 17kw stripping 10% wash and say a 20% expected heat loss. I assume these are stainless steel shotguns. The initial 57% abv vapor rate would be about 33 L/hr and that is probably not too high a vapor rate. About 4.2+ L/min cooling water are needed to condense the vapor plus another 1 L/min to subcool the condensate.

And a 9 tube x 0.5" diam and 24" tube length would need about 8+ L/hr cooling water flow rate, plus another 1.5 L/min for subcooling.

Not so good designs
A 7 tube x 0.5" diam and 18" long tube length should not do a good job. About 23 L/min cooling water needed.
A 7 tube x 0.5" diam and 24" long tube length should not do a good job. About 13 L/min cooling water needed.

Maybe this
A 7 tube x 0.5" diam and 36" long tube length can also do the job but vapor velocity is a little higher but should be ok. About 6+ L/min cooling water needed plus another 1+ L/min to subcool the condensate.

Compare this
Yummyrum's high flow rate of 60 L/hr into 3 x 0.75' diam tube 1.5m long shotgun has about the same vapor velocity as the 7 x 0.5" tubes above. So your 17 kw is ok with the 7 tube shotgun. I got about 9 L/min cooling water flow needed for Yummy's case.


Here are the Haggy Condenser Calculator results for the 9 tube SS shotgun.

Input Data

image.png

Results

image.png


Haggy

Thanks Haggy for the number crunching! I'm not sure what they all mean but I'll take your word, an experts word, on it.
Water is not a problem here. I have a creek running thru my backyard and a pump that'll deliver 10gal/min that I keep a 300gal IBC tote full with. If the tote water gets too hot I can bypass it and pump straight from the creek and discharge the hot water back underground to the creek.
I've thought about even using beer as a cooling medium instead of water and using the condensers as a preheater. Maybe use a half barrel of beer until it gets about 160°? Then switch to tote water. Couple of hours later, pump the backset into another barrel and recharge boiler with hot beer. That way I could run a whole barrel of mash in a day instead of just one a day?
Not sure of the details yet, just thinking out loud and hoping you guys have some good ideas that help. I'm getting old and don't enjoy sitting in a hot shed like I used to. But I ain't about to leave the shed with it running. I'd be nice if I only had to spend one day every couple of months bsbysitting a hot still.
And big thanks for everyone chiming in and the good advise!

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

My feed to the house is currently 6kW (I can upgrade by changing subscription without changing the cables). We scrape through despite having an electric car and despite my distilling. Anything about 12kW here is considered to be for a large house with all-electric heating. Much above that and the grid company strongly suggests rewiring to 3-phase!

Where are you located? California?
With 200 Amp 240V load center I can pull 48kw at a time from the power company if my math is right. I was a licensed electrician in TN but never bothered to get licensed when I moved down here. That was 25 years ago so my math might not be mathing anymore.

[shadylane]

The shine shed is only about 50ft from the 200Amp power pole. I have 8/2 going to each controller. I'd only use all 3 element during heat up (16500W).

Then size the PC to the max power the wash can handle before foaming up and wanting to puke.
Just guessing somewhere around 8-10kw max if the wash is cleared. If the wash is dirty probably closer to 6-8kw.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

The shine shed is only about 50ft from the 200Amp power pole. I have 8/2 going to each controller. I'd only use all 3 element during heat up (16500W).

Then size the PC to the max power the wash can handle before foaming up and wanting to puke.
Just guessing somewhere around 8-10kw max if the wash is cleared. If the wash is dirty probably closer to 6-8kw.

Good thinking! I didn't plan on running but 2 elements during the run, and if it pukes have a slobber box that drain back into the boiler. But hopefully I won't run it quite hot enough to puke.