Reflux Condenser Water Supply Q

[Bee]

Is it better to run the reflux condenser off of the water coming out of the product condenser or to feed it fresh water?

[PalCabral]

Separate feed so you can adjust the flow totally independent, without any impact from the PC.

[LWTCS]

Is it better to run the reflux condenser off of the water coming out of the product condenser or to feed it fresh water?

More specifically, the only time it is advisable to run off of the PC CW outlet, is if any adjustment of flow rate does not affect the PC's ability to deliver the operator's desired distillate temperature.
For hobby systems, this usually means dedicated flow to each HX.

[Bee]

Thanks. I'm trying to figure out splitting the CW off one source, with a valve for each condenser.

[Turbo6ta]

Although there may be better ways to plumb this, this works ok for me:

I shut the cooling water valves off to the dephlegmator in the column when I use my small still in 'Pot Still' mode ... and open the valves to the dephlegmator when using 'hybrid' mode and wanting more reflux action such as when making neutral spirits for use in gin (with the valves open, both condensers get cooling water)

Since these are adjustable ball valves, they can be adjusted so more or less cooler water goes to the dephleg vs what already goes to the product condenser.

This system gives you 2 stills in one ... either a pot still or a reflux still.

[Tammuz]

Although there may be better ways to plumb this, this works ok for me:

I shut the cooling water valves off to the dephlegmator in the column when I use my small still in 'Pot Still' mode ... and open the valves to the dephlegmator when using 'hybrid' mode and wanting more reflux action such as when making neutral spirits for use in gin (with the valves open, both condensers get cooling water)

Since these are adjustable ball valves, they can be adjusted so more or less cooler water goes to the dephleg vs what already goes to the product condenser.

This system gives you 2 stills in one ... either a pot still or a reflux still.

You may feel you have two stills but one of them is very weak. I can't see much separation going on in that column.

[Turbo6ta]

Tammuz ... "You may feel you have two stills but one of them is very weak. I can't see much separation going on in that column".

You feel that I won't get much reflux separation in my vertical column.

Ok, can you explain why I won't get much separation from the dephlegmator in my column.

[Salt Must Flow]

Tammuz ... "You may feel you have two stills but one of them is very weak. I can't see much separation going on in that column".

You feel that I won't get much reflux separation in my vertical column.

Ok, can you explain why I won't get much separation from the dephlegmator in my column.

To get the benefit of a reflux column, it requires a condenser to induce reflux (reflux condenser or dephlegmator in this case) and an appropriate length of packed column. I can't tell if that is a packed column or just a hollow riser in that pic. Regardless, even if there is packing inside it, it looks like it could only house a few inches of packing. That is not going to create much separation or fractionation.

I don't think operating a basic pot still will benefit much, if any, by just inducing some reflux with a dephlegmator (without adequate packing).

[Turbo6ta]

That short section of pipe that is between the bottom of the sight glass and the lid of the pot is packed with copper mesh ... How about I replace that short section of pipe with a pipe thats maybe about 12-14 inches long and pack it with copper mesh ... would that help the dephlegmator in the column to reflux a bit better?

Or, how about I just leave everything as it is and also pack the sight glass with copper mesh too? That would give me copper mesh in both the short pipe under the sight glass and in the sight glass above the short pipe.

[Salt Must Flow]

That short section of pipe that is between the bottom of the sight glass and the lid of the pot is packed with copper mesh ... How about I replace that short section of pipe with a pipe thats maybe about 12-14 inches long and pack it with copper mesh ... would that help the dephlegmator in the column to reflux a bit better?

Or, how about I just leave everything as it is and also pack the sight glass with copper mesh too? That would give me copper mesh in both the short pipe under the sight glass and in the sight glass above the short pipe.

Some people prefer the sight glass just above the boiler (to detect foaming) while others prefer it beneath the dephlegmator (for a still in this configuration). That's for you to decide.

It's obvious where the packed column goes. The more packed column, the more fractionation can occur therefore the more neutral of a spirit that can be produced. For a very clean, neutral spirit, the general rule is for the packed reflux column to be at least 20x the diameter of the column. So a 2" reflux column should be 40".

Some people use a shorter packed reflux column to make flavored spirits. That takes some experience to tune a column to make it work like you want it to work with exactly what kind of spirit you intend to make. For this reason, this is the best way I can directly answer your question.

[Turbo6ta]

One onther option I was considering is just removing the dephlegmator in my vertical column altogether and replacing it with a set of 3 bubble plates as shown in the photo below:

My question is: which item by itself normally gives more reflux ... a dephlegmator like shown in the photo I posted above, or 3 bubble plates like shown in the photo below?

Thanks,

[Salt Must Flow]

One onther option I was considering is just removing the dephlegmator in my vertical column altogether and replacing it with a set of 3 bubble plates as shown in the photo below:

My question is: which item by itself normally gives more reflux ... a dephlegmator like shown in the photo I posted above, or 3 bubble plates like shown in the photo below?

Thanks,

I'm not sure you understand the basics yet, like what reflux is and the basics of how different stills work.

Basically the power input determines the amount of vapor that is produced. The dephlegmator should be capable of condensing all of the rising vapor, variable amounts of the vapor and the condensed vapor that falls down is referred to as REFLUX.

Bubble caps/plates DO NOT create reflux. The reflux (the condensed vapor) pools in the bubble plates, excess reflux overflows and falls to the plate below and the hot vapor rising through the bubble plates is what produces the bubbling action. The more bubble plates you have, the more fractionation occurs. If I recall correctly, it takes approx 20 or so bubble plates to equal the performance of a proper length of packed column to make a very clean neutral spirit. For hobby purposes most use bubble plates for flavored spirits.

It would probably be best to start your own topic to discuss still options and how they function.

[Turbo6ta]

Yup ... I probably don't understand the basics

I tried to delete all my posts I made in this thread since this thread belongs to someone else. It won't alow me to delete them.

I apologize to the OP. My mistake

[Saltbush Bill]

Running any amount of plates without a deflegmator is going to be a waste of time.
The defleg is what does most of the sorting of the fractions and holds tails back.

[Bee]

What do you guys use for RC water supply line and waste water offtake?

I used garden hose, but it seems to kink and make flow adjustments hinky. I think it takes more water pressure than it should to overcome the kinks.

[Bolverk]

I use1/2" pneumatic air line

[Tammuz]

I use1/2" pneumatic air line

As do I with a flow meter and these valves. Overkill but cheap.

[Salt Must Flow]

What do you guys use for RC water supply line and waste water offtake?

I used garden hose, but it seems to kink and make flow adjustments hinky. I think it takes more water pressure than it should to overcome the kinks.

I use my home's well water/ground water pressure to supply cold water to my condensers. The higher pressure allows me to use smaller diameter tubing in comparison to the relatively low pressure that pond/aquarium pumps can supply. Low water pressure requires larger diameter tubing/hose. I used to use 1/4" OD tubing and it worked fine to knock down 5500W, but later had to step up to 3/8" OD tubing because 1/4" was too restrictive and couldn't supply enough water to knock down 11000W.

I used to use common, readily available Polyethylene tubing, but began having some issues with the hot ends melting and causing leaks. I upgraded to using Polypropylene tubing and never had a single issue since. That's because Polypropylene has a significantly higher working temp range than Polyethylene.

I use Push-Connect fittings like these. They are also constructed of Polypropylene so there's no issues with high water temps.

Push Connect Fittings.png

[SW_Shiner]

I use similar to Shady, push fittings with poly 6mm lines. Blue for cold and red for hot. I used to use garden hose as well but got annoyed with the hot side kinking all the time.

[Bee]

Do those push fittings come in garden hose thread from big-box hardware stores?

[Bushman]

Like Salt Must Flow I use well water and my output goes in a large garbage can once cooled i water the garden in the summer. In the winter it runs off into the ground. Since I am on a well I don’t have a water bill.

[SW_Shiner]

Do those push fittings come in garden hose thread from big-box hardware stores?

Should be easy to find. They come in all sorts of sizes, i'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to find one that goes to 3/4"

[Salt Must Flow]

Do those push fittings come in garden hose thread from big-box hardware stores?

They are made to adapt to garden hose, but some stores have a wider variety of fittings than others. These fittings are usually much less expensive on online, Amazon.

[shadylane]

Is it better to run the reflux condenser off of the water coming out of the product condenser or to feed it fresh water?

It depends, if the column is LM, or VM it wouldn't make much difference.
But I think on a CM using wastewater from the PC to cool a dephlegmator wouldn't work very well because the operation would be unstable.

[SW_Shiner]

I agree with shadylane. If you're running a VM or LM, so long as you are able to match the flow rates between condensers (still condensing product while reflux condenser is at optimal settings). Then it shouldn't matter too much, as long as no reflux makes it past, a couple degrees either way shouldn't affect too much. With a CM however, fluctuations in the temp or flow through the dephleg could cause some issues during the run.

[Bee]

Here's a schematic of what I'm trying to do. I can't bend the GHT connection on the RC because I have to use it's entire length for reflux. I tried using garden hose, but even the cold side kinks and chokes flow. The hot side gets soft and kinks even worse. So, I assume that Polypropylene tubing/connections (with GHT-NPT adapter) will be necessary. Questions are, what sizes should I get? Will the Polypropylene tubing be bendable enough to hookup to the top of the RC?
I'm thinking that on the cold side, I will only need non-kinking line from the Y-Splitter to the RC.



I'm using this to split the cold & hot lines. The valve on it (theoretically) allows me to build pressure on the cold input to direct water to the RC. This also shows why I need GHT connections.

[Salt Must Flow]

Here's a schematic of what I'm trying to do. I can't bend the GHT connection on the RC because I have to use it's entire length for reflux. I tried using garden hose, but even the cold side kinks and chokes flow. The hot side gets soft and kinks even worse. So, I assume that Polypropylene tubing/connections (with GHT-NPT adapter) will be necessary. Questions are, what sizes should I get? Will the Polypropylene tubing be bendable enough to hookup to the top of the RC?
I'm thinking that on the cold side, I will only need non-kinking line from the Y-Splitter to the RC.



I'm using this to split the cold & hot lines. The valve on it (theoretically) allows me to build pressure on the cold input to direct water to the RC. This also shows why I need GHT connections.

Bee, if you are using household water pressure, 1/4" OD tubing will work fine for even 5500W. Larger tubing is capable of higher water flow and knocking down 11000W+. I personally prefer to use the smallest size tube I can. Smaller tube is less bulky, more flexible, cheaper and smaller fittings are cheaper too.

You could use Polyethylene tubing if you want. It's much more readily available, less expensive and can even be found at local hardware stores. If you find that you NEED higher temp resistance, you could upgrade to Polypropylene later (at least the hot line, lines).

Polyethylene and Polypropylene tubing is pretty darn flexible and won't kink unless you abuse the hell out of it. You can use a heat gun, boiling water or a torch to heat a section, bend it and once it cools, it will maintain that shape. You can heat it and bend it back straight again too. This can be handy if you really want to customize your tubing to form bends for convenience. I use velcro strap to secure the tubing to locations on the still so it doesn't stress connectors if I trip on the hose or something like that.

You can buy brass needle valves which are compatible with Poly tubing at many hardware stores or online. This video shows how to use poly tubing with brass compression fittings. Basically you just need to buy a little brass insert and a plastic ring which cost pennies and are found at most hardware stores too. This will give you more precise control over the water flow rate in comparison to the garden hose splitter with valves.

Here is a pic of 3/8" OD tubing, brass needle valve and a Push To Connect ball valve.

Water Lines 02.jpg

Here are the water lines for my reflux condenser. Push To Connect 90 Elbows are handy to relieve stress on connectors, eliminate tight bends and let the tubing just hang downward.

Water Lines 01.jpg

[Bee]

Thank you for your insights, SMF.
I've been using garden hose because the run from the tap is 20+ft and the run to dispose of the hot water is ~12ft. The water source is obviously GHT and I have my PC done up with 1/2" FPT to GHT.

[SW_Shiner]

The fittings are common for RO water systems. I got 1/4 push to 1/2 thread and to 3/4 thread.

Line 1.png

fittings.png

3/4 is our garden hose size, and also happens to be the same size as a washing machine water line.

Tap.png

[shadylane]

Here's my preference for plumbing the cooling water and hot waste water on every reflux column.
The flow control valves are on the cold side, because it's easier to touch a cold valve than a hot one and since the temp is consistent the settings stay the same, also the packing gland on the valve stem is less likely to leak due to temp changes.
Two separate drains are used so I can see the flow from each of the condensers and touch or measure the water to check individual temp and flow.