3 inch RC help

[Corn Cracker]

I need some guidance on my 3 inch column buid, mainly the reflux condenser, i dont have a Tee at the top for a ccvm set up so i was thinking a crossflow deph.
Im not sure how many ½ lines should cross through it or the spacing between them. ive got some 6 inch pieces of 3 inch i can use and put ferrules on the ends if thats enough, i can get a littleblonger piece if needed or make 2 6 inch pieces with crossflow but that sounds like a lot.
Ive got 3 gallons of lows from my first sugar wash, about to do another amd maybe 1 more for a fuller charge in the still

[Salt Must Flow]

Why not make a copper double wound coil? A cross-flow reflux condenser is a hell of a project.

[shadylane]

I need some guidance on my 3 inch column buid, mainly the reflux condenser, i dont have a Tee at the top for a ccvm set up so i was thinking a crossflow deph.
Im not sure how many ½ lines should cross through it or the spacing between them. ive got some 6 inch pieces of 3 inch i can use and put ferrules on the ends if thats enough, i can get a littleblonger piece if needed or make 2 6 inch pieces with crossflow but that sounds like a lot.

Just guessing, around 15-20 cross tubes would probably be enough.
I'd recommend against using a crossflow dephleg, it's inefficient and a pain to plumb.

[Saltbush Bill]

Easier to build a 3 inch upright deflegmator, 4 tubes of a decent size should do.
This is the first 4 inch deflegmator I made years ago.
Its still doing a great job now .

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[Yummyrum]

Crossflow Deflagmator has me confused .

Are we talking about a CM here ?

Or was the word deflag accidentally dropped in when really you are talking about a regular crossflow reflux Condenser (thors hammer style) above a VM or LM takeoff head ?

[SW_Shiner]

A crossflow is the wrong type of condenser for a CCVM. That would be for an LM or VM (edit). A CCVM requires that the condenser can be moved in relation to the takeoff port. If you meant just plain VM rather than CCVM, then a crossflow would work.

[shadylane]

When I hear "cross tube" I think of something like this.

[shadylane]

Cross flow aka Thor's hammer.

[Corn Cracker]

Maybe i read and remembered the wrong name for it, i think shady recognized what i was saying. I have 90s up top so i cant drop a coil for ccvm, that 3 inch T is pricey. I dont mind soldering all the ½ inch 90s, just wasnt sure how else to go about it and that seemed easily doable

[SW_Shiner]

What kind of still are you trying to make? a VM, LM or CCVM? Because that condensor will only work on one of those configurations, unless you have a large valve for your take off too.

[Flustered]

3” stainless tri-clamp sanitary tee is $46 on Amazon.
I use a 2” with a stainless 90 on my otherwise copper CCVM rig.

[Flustered]

IMG_1533.jpeg

Stripping some 100% corn right now.

[Tammuz]

IMG_1533.jpegStripping some 100% corn right now.

Is there only condensation in your top sight glass because you're pushing hard on stripping. On stripping runs we only use a sight glass on the bottom to watch out for puking and never use the other sight glass to notice that condensation didn't build up equally.

[Corn Cracker]

3” stainless tri-clamp sanitary tee is $46 on Amazon.
I use a 2” with a stainless 90 on my otherwise copper CCVM rig.

That's a lot cheaper than a copper T
I might go that route if this doesn't work out
I have been searching and can't find a pic of what I'm talking about. I know it was here

[Flustered]

IMG_1533.jpegStripping some 100% corn right now.

Is there only condensation in your top sight glass because you're pushing hard on stripping. On stripping runs we only use a sight glass on the bottom to watch out for puking and never use the other sight glass to notice that condensation didn't build up equally.

Not sure why.
I wasn’t pushing hard then cause I didn’t degas and filled her up a bit too much.
I wasn’t pushing hard only running about 3000w at that point.

I put the second sight glass on to extend my riser and as a last chance to see a puke.

I had some foam come up past the bottom glass but not into the top one before throttling back so it served me well this time.

[Flustered]

3” stainless tri-clamp sanitary tee is $46 on Amazon.
I use a 2” with a stainless 90 on my otherwise copper CCVM rig.

That's a lot cheaper than a copper T
I might go that route if this doesn't work out
I have been searching and can't find a pic of what I'm talking about. I know it was here

My first still head was out of 1 1/2” that I got relatively cheap but paid dearly for the tee, 90 and caps.
I ran it on a bowl on top of my 5 gallon chili pot on the stovetop.
It was soldered in place with the 3 tube shotgun at an angle.
I’d seal the top cap, that was on a 4” long stub coming off the top of the tee, with teflon tape in pot mode and pull it off and stuff my SS gasline reflux coil into for reflux mode.

I messed it up trying to drill larger water ports into the shotty so I pulled it apart.
Man was that shotgun rough. My first try and not very good.
The 2” I use now is waaaaayyyy better.

[shadylane]

Maybe i read and remembered the wrong name for it, i think shady recognized what i was saying. I have 90s up top so i cant drop a coil for ccvm, that 3 inch T is pricey. I dont mind soldering all the ½ inch 90s, just wasnt sure how else to go about it and that seemed easily doable

You don't really need a 3" take off on a 3" column.
Maybe drill a hole in the 3" and solder on a 1" takeoff.

[Corn Cracker]

I got a 12 and a 15 piece of 3 inch from work today, the 15 has a nice dent though. I think i've settled on a shotgun type rc and maybe use that 15 for a shotgun pc which leads me to asking about the length that each should be, is 3x15 long enough for shotty with maybe 7 ½ tubes, same with rc? I dont think the rc need to be 12 inches but it can be.

[SW_Shiner]

Theres a calculator on the parent site that can help you figure out dimensions needed.

If its for a VM, i would not recommend a shotty for the RC. If you do, i would make it bigger than you think. I can tell you that 12" of 3" with 7, 1/2" tubes is not enough to knock down 3000w. Its not just the power input that you have to worry about, there's also vapour speed. Vapour goes through those little tubes quick and barely gets any dwell time to condense. Stuffing loosely with some copper mesh may help slow the vapour down.

[subbrew]

T Stuffing loosely with some copper mesh may help slow the vapour down.

Don't mean to be a know it all. But you hit my pet peeve myth. Putting in copper mesh will not slow down the vapor. It may conduct heat to the tubes and help condense more vapor but it can't slow down the vapor unless you have enough you are blocking the vapor path and building up pressure. For a given heat input there are x number of vapor molecules that have to leave. For a given pressure the density is constant, that means a given volume has to leave the boiler per time period. The only way to slow it down it if I start increasing pressure as the molecules that should have left do not. And that only works for a little bit until pressure exceeds the limits of the weakest component.

[shadylane]

I got a 12 and a 15 piece of 3 inch from work today, the 15 has a nice dent though. I think i've settled on a shotgun type rc and maybe use that 15 for a shotgun pc which leads me to asking about the length that each should be, is 3x15 long enough for shotty with maybe 7 ½ tubes, same with rc? I dont think the rc need to be 12 inches but it can be.

Shotgun condensers are often used for a dephlemator on CM still heads but a coiled dimroth condenser makes a better RC for use on VM or LM.
A coil will have considerably slower vapor speed and the vapor can dwell longer near the cool copper giving it more time to condense.
A shotgun RC can be used but it's going to be a water hog.
The downside to a shotgun is it's a two way street, the liquid is trying to drain down the tubes at the same time as the vapor is blowing upwards.
Something you don't want is a wad of copper in the tube that impedes the liquid from draining.

[SW_Shiner]

T Stuffing loosely with some copper mesh may help slow the vapour down.

Don't mean to be a know it all. But you hit my pet peeve myth. Putting in copper mesh will not slow down the vapor. It may conduct heat to the tubes and help condense more vapor but it can't slow down the vapor unless you have enough you are blocking the vapor path and building up pressure. For a given heat input there are x number of vapor molecules that have to leave. For a given pressure the density is constant, that means a given volume has to leave the boiler per time period. The only way to slow it down it if I start increasing pressure as the molecules that should have left do not. And that only works for a little bit until pressure exceeds the limits of the weakest component.

Ah ok. I wasn't sure what it was doing. I thought it was both slowing the vapour and increasing the cold surface area. Wasn't sure how it worked, i just know that vapour was leaking out the top of my still past my condenser. Loosely stuffing a copper scrubby in there stopped any vapours getting past. Though to be fair that was for a coil not a shotgun.

Also, on a slightly different note, because i am genuinely curious about this, but would the pressure not drop at the point the vapour is being cooled/condensed? Would that not cause a drop in vapour speed?

[shadylane]

think i've settled on a shotgun type rc and maybe use that 15 for a shotgun pc which leads me to asking about the length that each should be, is 3x15 long enough for shotty with maybe 7 ½ tubes, same with rc? I dont think the rc need to be 12 inches but it can be.

Here's a 4" shotgun dephleg that's 8" long, with eight 1/2" tubes. It's throttle response sucks but it can knock down more than 6kw.

[subbrew]

Also, on a slightly different note, because i am genuinely curious about this, but would the pressure not drop at the point the vapour is being cooled/condensed? Would that not cause a drop in vapour speed?

You are partly correct. The vapor condensing does cause pressure to drop. The boiler pressure is still the same. It is this difference in pressure that causes the vapor to flow from the boiler to the condenser. Although somewhat counter intuitive, the more efficient the condenser, the lower the pressure, causing a higher differential pressure with the boiler and faster vapor velocity. This would only be transitory though as an equilibrium state would soon be reached. For a given heat input the boiler can only put out so much vapor at a given pressure.

Let me walk through an example. A boiler and condenser system are in equilibrium. Now we add ice to the condenser water so it can take out more heat. The next steps all happen in a matter of seconds. The colder condenser will cause the pressure in the condenser to decrease. This decrease will cause the difference in pressure from the boiler to the condenser to increase. that will increase the amount of vapor flowing to the condenser. That will minutely drop the pressure in the boiler which will cause more vapor to be produced. This will soon, as in low seconds at most, stabilize. Since the power in did not increase the new vapor production is only a miniscule amount more than previous given the small size and air pressure systems we are using here. Scale that up and start pulling a vacuum on the condenser side like in a power plant and you can see a significant difference in vapor speed when you put colder water into the condenser. In that case the vapor production is enough you have hundreds of lb pressure in the boiler and negative pressure in the condenser so very high vapor speeds.

[SW_Shiner]

Also, on a slightly different note, because i am genuinely curious about this, but would the pressure not drop at the point the vapour is being cooled/condensed? Would that not cause a drop in vapour speed?

You are partly correct. The vapor condensing does cause pressure to drop. The boiler pressure is still the same. It is this difference in pressure that causes the vapor to flow from the boiler to the condenser. Although somewhat counter intuitive, the more efficient the condenser, the lower the pressure, causing a higher differential pressure with the boiler and faster vapor velocity. This would only be transitory though as an equilibrium state would soon be reached. For a given heat input the boiler can only put out so much vapor at a given pressure.

Let me walk through an example. A boiler and condenser system are in equilibrium. Now we add ice to the condenser water so it can take out more heat. The next steps all happen in a matter of seconds. The colder condenser will cause the pressure in the condenser to decrease. This decrease will cause the difference in pressure from the boiler to the condenser to increase. that will increase the amount of vapor flowing to the condenser. That will minutely drop the pressure in the boiler which will cause more vapor to be produced. This will soon, as in low seconds at most, stabilize. Since the power in did not increase the new vapor production is only a miniscule amount more than previous given the small size and air pressure systems we are using here. Scale that up and start pulling a vacuum on the condenser side like in a power plant and you can see a significant difference in vapor speed when you put colder water into the condenser. In that case the vapor production is enough you have hundreds of lb pressure in the boiler and negative pressure in the condenser so very high vapor speeds.

Ak ok, I see.
Thanks for that explanation.

Sorry for the derail OP

[Corn Cracker]

Got my end plate blanks made tonight.
a 6 inch piece of 2 inch copper will net 3 plates using a 3⅜ holesaw, that left 3¼inch discs with a ¼ inch hole in the center.

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Used a file to get a perfectly tight fit pipe wiggled on and the plate fittment held the pipe.

I will have to get a compass tomorrow to make 6 lines through the circle to get my spacing for the tubes laid out and drilled

[BigSwede]

Looking good CC! I especially like the use of that mandrel and I'm guessing a file to clean and size the two end plates.

I've made a few shotgun condensers. I've always liked the design, probably because I know how it'll turn out. My attempts at winding soft copper coils seem to end badly.

For a reflux-only condenser, one option is to use a standard end cap sized for the reflux pipe diameter, and drill that puppy for the tubes. You're going to get a good seal on top, easy to solder. That means only one fiddly interior cap at the bottom.

Like so, just an option:

Goal01.jpg

But with 2 interior caps and tri-clamps both ends, you have a condenser that can RC, PC, or possibly dephleg. More work but more uses.

[Corn Cracker]

Man, yall do nice work, makes a plumbers eye twinkle. I hit a hurdle laying out the tubes, it seems making 6 even lines across a circle takes a compass to lay out not like a pie or pizza that splits evenly into 4 or 8 and i couldnt find my compass.

[Salt Must Flow]

Man, yall do nice work, makes a plumbers eye twinkle. I hit a hurdle laying out the tubes, it seems making 6 even lines across a circle takes a compass to lay out not like a pie or pizza that splits evenly into 4 or 8 and i couldnt find my compass.

I find it easier to draw it out perfectly on a computer, print it and cut out the stencil. Punch the center holes then drill out the holes in steps or a using a step drill bit. Yes alternatively you could use a compuss and protractor.

[Corn Cracker]

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Got it figured out without a compas,
Took a couple tries but, every black X is the center mark for a ⅝ inch hole