More than one tower

[drunkmore]

Was wondering if its worth fiting more than one tower to a pot?

I have not yet built even one but if its worth putting on more than one, i will set my pot up so that it will acomodate multiples.
im sure there are ppl out there asking why would ya wanna but i figure that the extra flow would spead things up.
i plan on building reflux towers on a beer keg pot using gas heat. Water for cooling is not a problem cos i live next to a park which happens to have a tap just off my boundary Who says councils give you nothing for your rates.
Any way if any body has done the multi tower thing please let me know how it went. if any body hasnt done it and has a good reason why it shouldnt be done... please also let me know.
If and when i acomplish it ill post here again to give details and details of how it went.


[/quote]

[Uncle Jesse]

you mean two towers on one pot? sounds like a bad idea.

distilleries often have more than one rectification column attached to one still, to save ceiling space.

[LeftLaneCruiser]

you mean two towers on one pot? sounds like a bad idea.

distilleries often have more than one rectification column attached to one still, to save ceiling space.

I'm a bit confused here.
Why would it be a bad idea? If you have a large boiler, then two (or more) columns would double (or more) the output without losing purity, wouldn't it ?

Or would one large column be better for that purpose ? ( I happen to have some copper pipe of diameter 75 mm. lying around )


When you say that distilleries often have more than one column, you mean that they have a couple of shorter columns linked bottom to top. So in fact they have one column cut in pieces.
Do I understand this right ?

KJH

[Grayson_Stewart]

If you were to use multiple shorter columns linked in series, I would assume there would be:

1) A collection of condensed vapor at the lowest spot between these linked vertical columns.

2) It would be difficult to reach any form of equilibrium by reflux return. Distillate returned to the top of the first column would collect at the lowest spot. How would this distillate be returned to the top of the next column in series to filter down through that packing?

3.) There would need to be some way to return the wash water seperated from the alcohol back to the boiler.

I can see where multiple columns would work for a pot still, you could apply more power to the boiler. Someone jump in and correct me if I'm wrong here.

[swpeddle]

......
I can see where multiple columns would work for a pot still, you could apply more power to the boiler. Someone jump in and correct me if I'm wrong here.

Ok, I am confused here. Why would you have multiple columns on a pot still? It sounds like to me that you;re talking about multiple lyne arms. To my mind, if you want to increase the flowrate/decrease backpressure into the condensor, wouldn't it be easier (less chance of leakge) to have a larger diameter lyne arm leading the condensor instead?

WRT mulitple columns on a reflux still, I can't see any technical reason why not. I can see, however, that it may be much harder to balance the reflux rates, since balancing one tower may affect the other. Not to say it couldn;t be done, just that it may take alot more fiddling to do it. Mind you, I only use a pot still, so I may be totally wrong here.

[The Chemist]

I think you're going down the wrong road here, drunkmore. While I don't see anything to stop you from having multiple columns on one pot, I also don't see why you would want to (also no reference I can find where it has ever been done). We're talking a beer keg here. A 7.5 cm column is too big for that unless you're really the mechanical sort and want to install drip trays on the inside. Which also adds a lot of energy problems.
Anyway, the quality of distillation depends on the reflux equilibrium. You really want to slow down to get a good product. It takes the time it takes!

[drunkmore]

damn how do i put a drawing on here?
no i dont mean putting them in series i mean in parralel on the top of my boiler, like haveing four straws in a good bourbon & coke. Four people get drunk but dont have to share spit on one straw.
Uncle Jessy you say.

you mean two towers on one pot? sounds like a bad idea

but dont give a reason. then you go on to say

distilleries often have more than one rectification column attached to one still, to save ceiling space

This brings 2 questions to mind one is wtf is a rectificaton column (is that like the charchoal "S"bend?) (I know do more home work)
and two why would you bother doing that more than once.
Thanks swpeddle, i see where your going with the ballance thing like turning the kitchen tap on when the wife is in the shower... to much fidling ... No not the same at all. yes i can see the ballance thing might create dificulties.
Chemist thanks for that but for some the fun is in the tinkering and the drinkering, I was just pondering on the speed of it to get to the drinkering quicker for les time invested.
Thanks for all your quick response

[swpeddle]

I've never heard of multiple layne arms for one pot still before, but I have heard of multiple potstills runnin' into one HUGE coil (usually this is only done on large moonshine operations).

That's kinda what I do with my setup.....I have two stock pots as my boilers. One feeds into the second and then the second feeds into a coil condenser that's basically a copy of a counter flow wort chiller. I did that so I can do my stripping run in one go on my kitchen stove. I then close off the attachment point to the first pot and use the second pot alone for my 2nd cuts run. Works perfect for my fancy molasses washes. Here's a pic: http://img196.exs.cx/img196/3278/generalboilers6jo.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow of what I am talkign about.

[The Chemist]

Bless you, drunkmore. I'm envious of mechanical people, because I'm not one! Tinker away, and good luck. But the speed thing is a different issue.
On the rectification front: we're talking big, professional distilleries here, but a rectification column is a seperate column with the feed near the bottom (beer column feeds around 3/4 of the way up) and seperate draws for various unwanted elements retained after the beer distillation. (Super-technically, the portion of the beerstill above the feed is also a rectification zone.) Basically cleans up the finished product. Scotch is almost always rectified, and vodka? Three, four times, whatever.

[Guest]

......
I can see where multiple columns would work for a pot still, you could apply more power to the boiler. Someone jump in and correct me if I'm wrong here.

That is exactly what I mean. Would 2 - 1 1/2" at 18-20"tall be similar to 1- 2" x 42" tower?

I cant find a picture of the design I am thinking of, but I have seen it somewhere on the net.

It is 2 1 1/2" towers 18"long coming out of a boiler...They each have 90* elbows on the tops, connecting to a tee 1.5"x1.5"x3" . Then there is about an 8" piece of 3" that has a double helix in it. I couldn't see the valves from the picture, to see if each tower had reflux and output, or if there was only an output tube from one side. I wish I had a picture.

I draw worse than my 3 yr old....but this may help explain...

[Uncle Jesse]

having multiple columns is not going to increase the rate at which your mash boils or the amount of steam being put off. if anything, it might lower your temperatures making your boil less efficient, so you might need more power to the unit. also, it _might_ increase the flow of your spirit a bit because you are condensing twice, but the whole idea of a quality spirit is patience, not speed.

any time you try to cheat and speed things up, your distillate will suffer.

[Guest]

having multiple columns is not going to increase the rate at which your mash boils or the amount of steam being put off. if anything, it might lower your temperatures making your boil less efficient, so you might need more power to the unit. also, it _might_ increase the flow of your spirit a bit because you are condensing twice, but the whole idea of a quality spirit is patience, not speed.

any time you try to cheat and speed things up, your distillate will suffer.

Actually if you were to look at the drawing above, it only condenses once, and then drops the condensed liquid down both towers. Only one Tower has an eliptical plate and output tube(with a valve) so I would imagine it might be slower than a 2" x 42" tower, but...could it get close to the same purity as a 2" x 42" tower? The idea of the picture isn't to speed things up, it is to keep the towers to about 25" tall, and get about the same quality and speed as a 2" x 42" tower.[/i]

[Uncle Jesse]

well, in that case, i suggest multiple columns. think of it as running a thumper only it's another column entirely. this is done quite often, again, to save ceiling space.

[LeftLaneCruiser]

OK

now it starts to make sense.

Thanks all for your comments, explanations and visual aids.

KJH

[Uncle Jesse]

not sure what your avatar is but i like the pic

[MyDBear]

That is exactly what I mean. Would 2 - 1 1/2" at 18-20"tall be similar to 1- 2" x 42" tower?

I cant find a picture of the design I am thinking of, but I have seen it somewhere on the net.

It is 2 1 1/2" towers 18"long coming out of a boiler...They each have 90* elbows on the tops, connecting to a tee 1.5"x1.5"x3" . Then there is about an 8" piece of 3" that has a double helix in it. I couldn't see the valves from the picture, to see if each tower had reflux and output, or if there was only an output tube from one side. I wish I had a picture.

I like yer idea bout the 2 colum still head. The only draw back that I see is that you would get more reflux from this set up than you would if the still head was one length because you are only colecting from one half of the vapor that is going back down the 2 colums. If you were to put a plate in both colums with a valve in both colums and connected the valves to a tee so you would have one outlet for tour product you would have better control over your reflux.

Would 2 - 1 1/2" at 18-20"tall be similar to 1- 2" x 42" tower?

NO: two colums at 1-1/2"X20" side by side has an area of 70.688 cubic inches
one colum at 2"X42" has an area of 131.95 cubic inches.
You would need two colums at 1-1/2"X37-1/4" to equal one colum at 2"X42"

[Fourway]

What I've seen was a setup where the builder was either too broke or unmotivated to obtain 2" copper and instead made a column from a cluster of 1" tubes.
Four tubes he figured would equal the volume of a single 2" so he clustered them and soldered them together along their lengths forming a fifth tube in between them which he initially talked about piping cooling water to the bottom of but was later convinced would be unworkable.
he ended up using a single loop of copper tube soldered to the outside of the cluster for a cooling tube and piping the bunch into a single libeg condenser.

As far as I could tell his rig was working as well or better than other cooling managed heads I've seen.

[LeftLaneCruiser]

not sure what your avatar is but i like the pic

found it here: http://www.merl.com/people/frisken/frisken_images.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

is said to be an alcohol molecule

KJH

[The Chemist]

It gets curiouser and curiouser! Now that I see the drawing, a few observations.
1. Post above (MyDBear) is correct. If you're only collecting from one column, you won't get any increase in speed. If you set it up to collect from both sides, you should. If the plates are in the same position, regulation shouldn't be much of a problem either.
2. It looks like a hybrid pot/continuous still. Interesting concept. It does bring up a rectification problem, though. The rectification process is the price the big distillers pay for having a continuous system (economics). If you're taking off the product in about the middle of the reflux, you're probably getting more "heads" than is pleasant. If the increase in speed is more important to you during the initial distillation, you could solve this by gently heating (control could be a problem) the product to drive off the objectionables afterward.
And questions.
1. How do you determine where the draw should be?
2. Is the top open (for safety)? If so, how efficient is the coil? You do want some of the "heads" components left in.

[Guest]

It gets curiouser and curiouser! Now that I see the drawing, a few observations.
1. Post above (MyDBear) is correct. If you're only collecting from one column, you won't get any increase in speed. If you set it up to collect from both sides, you should. If the plates are in the same position, regulation shouldn't be much of a problem either.
2. It looks like a hybrid pot/continuous still. Interesting concept. It does bring up a rectification problem, though. The rectification process is the price the big distillers pay for having a continuous system (economics). If you're taking off the product in about the middle of the reflux, you're probably getting more "heads" than is pleasant. If the increase in speed is more important to you during the initial distillation, you could solve this by gently heating (control could be a problem) the product to drive off the objectionables afterward.
And questions.
1. How do you determine where the draw should be?
2. Is the top open (for safety)? If so, how efficient is the coil? You do want some of the "heads" components left in.

This is a revised picture. Notice the plates that send the condensed liquid evenly down both columns, and the ones that send the condensed liquid down the center of the packing. The coil would be a very efficient double helix with a cooling "finger" in the center, and yes the top would be open. I wouldn't want this to necessarily be a "speedy" still. The column without the output tube/valve would be in continuous reflux, the column on the other side has a valve to control the amount of reflux\output. I figured haeds would not be so much a problem with the one side being continuous reflux, and the other side being controlled reflux. Keep in mind the condenser is in a 3"diameter piece. and the columns are 1.5" in diameter. I am just wondering if the end product would be as pure as a standard 42" x 2" reflux still with a double helix coil and valves\plates. Also, I wonder if it would be as fast\slow as a 42"x2" reflux w\plates.

[Josesillo]

what if you make a plate or even better give some inclination to the top of the columns so the condensate goes all to one side and collects in one elliptical plate, the only drawback i see is that it has reflux only on one of the columns


i think it will work this way

[Guest]

the only drawback i see is that it has reflux only on one of the columns
i think it will work this way

That is why I have it going down both columns, one column would be in continuous reflux, and the other can be in full reflux, or partial reflux w/output due to the valve.

The drawing that you added would probably work great. Although it would probably be quite a bit faster, and provide more heads. (more like a potstill.

[Guest]

Does anyone else have any suggestions or comments?

[Fourway]

Does anyone else have any suggestions or comments?

register a username?

[Tater]

lol

[Guest]

Does anyone else have any suggestions or comments?

register a username?

~Pothead

[Guest]

Does anyone else have any suggestions or comments?

I suggest that unless ya have access to a huge amount of free scrap copper ya go with a proven design, rather than redesign the wheel... JMHO.

I have gotten my hands on quite a bit of 1.5" copper for free, and all the male/female adapters, reducers, couplings, tees, etc.... That is pretty much the main reason why I thought of this. The other reason is well, I want one like noone else's. The extra work wouldn't bother me too much, because I have a decent potstill head that I run and That is what I prefer to run, but i figured hell...if I have this extra copper, might as well make somethin to run sugar wash's with too. I was gonna make an inline like alex's design, and I looked into makin one like his "mini still" but 18" of 1.5" would simply take forever. so I thought...ok, maybe 2 columns of that size. I hate winding coils, so...wtf...maybe just 1 condenser. Then I thought about outputs from both columns and linking them together...but, that would be a little too precise for me to put them in the exact same place on each column.


I just want a couple more honest opinions before I start soldering stuff together. I understand why this design may not get me the same quality/speed as a 42"x 2" column, but having one column in contiuous reflux, and one column being contolled with a valve, along with having the plates in the correct places, I though maybe I could get about 92-94%purity at an ok rate. I know that it would probably take 6hrs to run 12 gallons of wash, but that doesn't bother me. Like I said, I run a potstill most of the time anyway.

[Josesillo]

if one of the columns is going to be only for reflux then how are you shure to get all the foreshots at first if half of the condensate (if its accurate enough) is going to be recirculated

[Grayson_Stewart]

Maybe he's planning on sliding a wedge under the bottom on one side of the boiler till he gets the foreshots off, then level back up.

And what % abv of a 12 gallon wash are you talking about starting with? I'd be willing to bet that it's going to take longer than 6 hours to get the purity your talking about getting from a 12 gallon 18% abv turbo wash.

[Guest]

if one of the columns is going to be only for reflux then how are you shure to get all the foreshots at first if half of the condensate (if its accurate enough) is going to be recirculated

Good point. I guess I could put a shut-off in place for the tower that has no output line and keep shut it off for the removal of the foreshots.

And what % abv of a 12 gallon wash are you talking about starting with? I'd be willing to bet that it's going to take longer than 6 hours to get the purity your talking about getting from a 12 gallon 18% abv turbo wash.

It was just a guess, I didn't calculate anything. I am still not sure how much power I'd run, how many elements,etc... I'm still just gettin some ideas. But If i do build some kind of reflux unit, I will use turbo and sugar.