Corn mash

[Virginia Gentleman]

Hey ya'll, great site and excellent forums. I've read both almost end to end, and have the Corn Whiskey book for reference as well. I'm starting small, making a basic pot still from a stainless tea kettle, copper tubing, etc. Just want to get my feet wet and try a few runs before building a slightly larger set-up. In the end my goal is to pot still corn whiskey, and drink some immediately (of course), but set aside some in small oak barrels and work towards bourbon (my favorite drink). I know that making good bourbon is a long way off, but ya gotta have goals. Even on the first runs, though, I want to leave as much flavor in as possible (not interested in making tasteless, 95% abv distalate.

Anyway, I've read quite a bit here and elsewhere about different washes, and have a basic idea of what I want to use for the first run, but could use some advice (and may be way off). Since I'm starting small, I'm looking at something like:

1/2 lb. ground corn (meal) [later I would think about adding some rye & barley]
1/2 lb. cane sugar
2.6 ounces of brewer's malt
1 gal. spring water

Heat up the water to 120 degrees F (sorry about imperial units), add corn/sugar/malt, cook for about an hour. When mash is done, let it cool to room temp., add 1 packet of yeast (perhaps started working in sugar water first) that's already foaming. Pour mash into my fermenting container (commercial water cooler bottle), put airlock on it (or just cloth?), store at 70-80 degrees. Stir it every day, check taste after 3 or 4 days, and when sweetness is gone and tastes sour/of alchohol it's ready to distill (may take as long as 10 days?).

When I'm ready to distill, should I strain the wash to take the corn out before it goes in the still?

For maximum flavor, should I consider only one run through the still, or will it be too weak? Will a second run take out too much flavor? Also, should I charcoal filter it when done, or does that remove too much flavor as well (I know TN whiskey is filtered, bourbon isn't?)?

Sorry for so many questions, trying to stay specific. Thanks for any help!

~VG

"Don't use no green or rotten wood, they'll get you by the smoke..."

[Yttrium]

There are some commercial distilleries that distill "on grain" meaning they don't strain out the grain before running it on the still. In order to do this properly, you would need to make sure that you won't scorch any of the solid material in the still. The use of a double boiler or steam heating would prevent scorching, but in general, it would probably be easiest to just strain out the solid material before distilling.

[Uncle Jesse]

i've done "in-grain" or "on-grain" ferments. works just fine but don't feed those grains to livestock afterward unless you dry them. ever seen livestock drunk? it's not pretty.

why do you say 120F? seems a bit low to me. i like 148F-154F and nobody seems to agree on the proper temps so experiment.

but then, i do all-grain mashes usually, perhaps corn meal has different requirements.

[The Chemist]

Uncle Jesse's right about the temps. Alpha-amylase works best from 149-155 (F), beta-amylase a little higher (155-160). I know homebrew guys who are fanatic about controlling these temp points (my supply guy goes 152 for 45 min, 159 for 30, testing for starch the whole while) but my setup is not that sophisticated.

[The Chemist]

Looking back over the thread, I wonder if corn meal works at all. Starch conversion is an enzymatic process, not just heat. Has anyone used just commercial cornmeal? Maybe it works if it's not processed to death.

[Virginia Gentleman]

Thanks Yttrium, Jesse and Chemist for the replies. Sounds like I can experiment with keeping grains in, but need to be careful with heat level and scorching. No internal heating element, so at least I don't have to worry about that. Since it's a first run, will probably try first without the grain in.

And I'll try closer to 148-154 to cook the mash, Jesse and Chemist, thanks.

Jesse, when you say

i do all-grain mashes usually

what do you mean? How is that different from ground corn, for instance?

And if you all have a better recipe than what I posted (I've read quite a few on this site) that will get me closer to the beginnings of bourbon, would love to see them.

What about 1 vs. 2+ runs and taste/strength? Chacoal filter at the end?

[Virginia Gentleman]

Looking back over the thread, I wonder if corn meal works at all. Starch conversion is an enzymatic process, not just heat. Has anyone used just commercial cornmeal? Maybe it works if it's not processed to death.

Was wondering that too, Chemist. Could be the grocery store stuff is so processed you can get enough sugar going in it to ferment. If that's the case, what's another source for corn? Ground corn from a feed store?

[The Chemist]

If we don't hear one way or the other, I'll try some experiments in the next couple of days with commercial cormeal. But if you have a homebrew supplier near you, just to be safe, I would get some barley from him, grind it, and add just a little to your cornmeal, then heat for starch conversion. You wouldn't need much--enzymes are very efficient, especially at optimum temperature.

[Virginia Gentleman]

Good deal. I really appreciate the help, and of course I'll post any results from my end as soon as I have them. I like the barley idea. Excuse my ig'rance, but would adding "2.6 ounces of brewer's malt" from my recipe above serve the same purpose?

[Uncle Jesse]

i used the simple sour mash method to learn.

briefly, for 5 gallons:

7 lbs cracked corn (6-8 pieces/kernel is the proper crack)
7 lbs sugar
5 gallons water
1 tbsp yeast

Put them into a fermenter and let it go. It will ferment on it's own over a few days. when it's done, distill it. take your backset, 25%-50% depending on taste and put it back into the fermenter. scoop out the floating corn kernels and replace with an equal amount. put in 7 lbs of sugar and repeat the process.

no cooking, very cheap and quick, a great way to learn. makes a decent tennessee style corn whisky if you want to age in oak. or it's just plain good moonshine if you don't age it.

[Virginia Gentleman]

Now yer talking, Jesse. That's what I was looking for. One final question, and then I'll shut the &*$ up until I've learnt some more by doing:

What's the best source for cracked corn? I'm in central (rural) Virginia. No brew supply places here, but lots of Southern States, Farm & Tractor Supply and the like. Wish we had a grain mill nearby, but don't think we do.

[The Chemist]

Sorry, VG--I was reading faster than my brain was processing and thought you said "brewer's yeast" (absent-minded scientist, y'know)! Brewer's MALT should serve the same purpose, and you should be golden!

[Virginia Gentleman]

Gotcha, Chemist. Got to get those enzymes in there. I should have some results next week, and will report back. Meantime I'll have to survive on some 'shine a firend gave me that I've been soaking on charred oak strips I made. Amazing how much color and flavor it took on in just a week. Talk to you soon, guys.

[Virginia Gentleman]

I reckon this might work for cracked corn. Need to investigate how it's processed and additives, though.

http://www.mytscstore.com/detail.asp?pc ... uctID=1785

[Uncle Jesse]

i buy it from pet smart as bird feed in 20 pound bags. just make sure it doesnt have preservatives.

[Tater]

im in nc and get my gracked corn from feed store like is used to feed chickins

[Virginia Gentleman]

That sounds about right, Tater, thanks. Just checked Farm & Tractor, and they've got 50 lb. bags of Producer's Pride cracked corn for about $6 a bag. Headed there after work.

[Uncle Jesse]

as my buddies in atlanta say, "now you're shittin' in the tall cotton."

[swpeddle]

[quote="Uncle Jesse"]i used the simple sour mash method to learn.

briefly, for 5 gallons:

7 lbs cracked corn (6-8 pieces/kernel is the proper crack)
7 lbs sugar
5 gallons water
1 tbsp yeast

Put them into a fermenter and let it go. It will ferment on it's own over a few days. when it's done, distill it. take your backset, 25%-50% depending on taste and put it back into the fermenter. scoop out the floating corn kernels and replace with an equal amount. put in 7 lbs of sugar and repeat the process.

no cooking, very cheap and quick, a great way to learn. makes a decent tennessee style corn whisky if you want to age in oak. or it's just plain good moonshine if you don't age it.[/quote]

ok, I've got a dumbass question......is backset basically sour mashing? It appears to be when I search for a defintion on the site. Does the proportion of backset (sourmash?) affect the taste of the additional mashes that significantly? Or is it a tradition thing ala jack Daniels?

In addition, do you let your spent wash cool before putting it back it? If you don't, that'll kill the yeast, but do you want that so you can re-pitch with fresh yeast or do successive yeast generations contribute to improved flavour? Sorry for all the questions, but you've got me curious now. I think I hear another test coming.

[Tater]

using backset in next wash helps keep flavor same

[Uncle Jesse]

yes and no. sour mash involves backset and yeast.

you need to use backset to sour mash, basically 25% by law minimum, not sure if 50% is the max by law or if that's just a rule of thumb but trust me, it doesnt improve flavor to go with much more than that. for a while i re-used all my backset (say 70% of my next mash liquid) and the taste was far too strong.

put your backset in cool since this is an uncooked mash. say you use 50%, that's 2.5 gallons so you can mix it with 2.5 gallons of cool water to bring the total to 5 gallons and cool things off. remember, this is for a 5 gallon ferment so we always put a total of 5 gallons back into the fermenter.

when i cook mashes, i take the boiling backset after distillation and use it to boil my cracked corn for the next batch to save on heating expenses.

another part of sour mashing is to re-use your yeast. i use all of it, dunder and all. you want some souring, unlike a beer where those spent lees are a bad thing and you only want to collect the white yeast cells.

i've done this simple sour mash method over 12-15 runs and it works great. after 3-4 runs you start to get a nice consistent flavor.

this is a variation on a real moonshiners method of making corn whisky. remember, the moonshiners kept is simple, cheap, economical. i try to lend an eye toward that tradition wherever possible. remember, in warm months they open fermented and let wild yeast do the job. in cold months they still open fermented but they'd throw in a packet of baking yeast. they used backset to lend acidity and kill any harmful bacteria. aside from that, it lends a unique, beneficial taste and promotes consistency.

[Uncle Jesse]

And that, Duke boys, is a world of wisdom handed down from me, to you.

Do it right.

[Guest]

And that, Duke boys, is a world of wisdom handed down from me, to you.

Do it right.

One question....the above recipe for simple sourmash doesn't say wether to strain the liquid off the before distilling... or should it be run with all the corn and all?






~Pothead

[Guest]

Also...would using backset be worthwhile in making brandy from grapes? ever know anyone to try?




~Pothead[/quote]

[Uncle Jesse]

strain it out, don't put solids into your still.

also, i do not think backset would be very good in brandy. it tastes rather odd after boiling for hours, trust me. it's not something which would bring to mind "quality sour mash whisky" when you first smell it.

[swpeddle]

ok....I have a couple of quick question for Uncle Jesse.....you say that you use the backset to boil the corn when you boil your mash, so are you saying that you boil the corn in that simple recipe? Similarly, would just pouring the boiling backset onto the corn be sufficent? or does it not matter whether or not you boil the corn prior to fermentation?

That leads me to the question of starch vs sugar content of that simple corn wash. I have thought that corn would need to be sparged like grain does, so I can;t see how either throwing it in cold or boiling it would acheived that starch conversion. Is it that corn has a different set of enzymes? Or is this sorta like the seething mass of oatmeal recipe?

Thanks again,
Steve
PS it's nice to see the forum finally being used for what I think it should be for: people who understand this process and have a little experience but wanting to expand their knoweledge and try different recipes.

[Virginia Gentleman]

And that, Duke boys, is a world of wisdom handed down from me, to you.

Do it right.

Great wisdom, Uncle Jesse. Simple, economical and clean, words to live by. Thanks for all the additional info fellas.

So a related question, are there sour mash/corn whisky recipes that use less sugar than equal parts corn to sugar? Or in other words, what's the minimum sugar to corn ratio you could use?

I understand that you need the sugar, but am wondering if more corn (and maybe a little rye and malted barley) creates a distilate with more flavor and that will age better. Guess I'll have to experiment and find out.

Nice snow up here in the hills of Virginia, makes the mountains look great.

[The Chemist]

VG you're making us jealous. Oh well, snow is better in pictures, but mountains are always good!

As for added sugar, the big commercial whiskey distillers don't use it. Murtagh gives typical mash bills as: Bourbon-70% corn, 15% rye, 15% malt; Tennessee whisky-80% corn, 10% rye, 10% malt; Rye-51% rye, 39% corn, 10% malt. I think I've seen some indications of recipes on some of the big guy's websites, but they're not about to give away the whole story!

Of course, the big guys employ chemists ( ) who make sure the starch conversion goes just right--when you add sugar, it's ready to go!

[Virginia Gentleman]

Heh Chemist, love the snow myself, that's what 4WD is for! Ever notice how it cleans a dog's head out? Something about those ice crystals hitting all that surface area in their noses makes 'em crazy.

I've see some of the mash bills for commercial bourbons, and that's what got me wondering about the sugar. Sounds like a no-sugar mash would be pretty tough to get right (and that's why the chemists make the big bucks, right?) so I'll stick with sugar for now, and learn as I go.

Any of you pros had luck with low- or no-sugar mashes?

[The Chemist]

Actually, VG, all grain mashes are not that difficult--I've done many for my homebrew. Just keep the enzymes happy and all will be well. The test for starch conversion is simple--take a sample of your mash (liquid only, no grain bits), put it on a white saucer, and add a couple of drops of iodine (from the drugstore). If it turns blue/black, keep holding your temp. If it remains red, you're good to go. (Trust me, this is not what chemists get "the big bucks" for. )