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HDTV wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:52 pm

NZChris wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:44 pm

HDTV wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:34 pm Is Birdwatcher's TPW wash more forgiving? I could try that one now, and better prepare myself for this one for next time.

No. I have to use shells to buffer the pH or it drops too low. The amount of shell used up varies, but the pH has never gotten out of control.

I'll have to study up on this. Using shell sounds like a good way to go, but I guess I need to be checking my PH anyway, if I really wanna know what's up.

Is it possible your water's PH is a significant factor?

Absolutely. That's why it's unwise to give newbies numbers that are based on your own experience.

NZChris wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:08 pm Absolutely. That's why it's unwise to give newbies numbers that are based on your own experience.

I guess there are bound to be many variables.

HDTV wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:04 am I guess there are bound to be many variables.

So do I.

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:07 am I use a wine nutrient very similar to that when making shadys sugar shine.......same deal cant get straight DAP.
I see no reason why it wont work in Winos wash.

Hi Saltbush,
I got some straight DAP, I will see if I can find where I got it from and let you know, I'm in NSW

StuNY wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:12 pm

HDTV wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:30 pm Hmmm, well that's discouraging. I don't think I have anything for measuring PH. Or access to oyster shells.

Here is the one I use- pretty much indispensable if you are serious about it- saves a lot of questions about stuck fermentations and keeping the yeast happy/tasty with all grains etc. For $13 it is a pretty easy investment.

https://www.amazon.com/Accuracy-Househo ... NrPXRydWU=

Nice, i have been using the old Ph Strips that I bought from Bunnings for pool Ph measurement!

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:57 pm

HDTV wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:30 pm Hmmm, well that's discouraging. I don't think I have anything for measuring PH.

No metion of PH adjustment in the original recipe.....read the first 3- 4 pages of the thread and see how often ph meteres or ph is mentioned.
Seems people managed quite happliy without once apon a time.

True enough, but it has been my experience running about 15 batches of this now. My water starts out at 7.0, and I am using distillers yeast. Without shells or adding Calcium Carbonate it drops to ph levels in the 3's within about 48 hours. Gets stuck pretty good if it sits at that level for a day or so. Saved the first batch after reading through more of the thread where Wineo offers suggestions for saving a stalled wash and PH problems. Heavy dose of yeast added to part of the wash and put back in the main wash after it starts up as long as PH is raised up first.

Shells work well once they get going, but I find I still need to add a bit of CC as necessary for the first day or two, then it ferments out on its own buffered by the shells.

Point is not all will suffer these problems in my opinion.
Current trend seems to be to assume that its impossible to ferment anything without PH meters and PH adjustment.

StuNY wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:07 am Shells work well once they get going ....

Are you putting them in after the pH crash to fix it, or before the pH crash to prevent it?

NZChris wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:58 pm

StuNY wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:07 am Shells work well once they get going ....

Are you putting them in after the pH crash to fix it, or before the pH crash to prevent it?

I put them in at the beginning, but notice that I still get a PH drop first day... correct it with calcium carbonate and then the shells take over after that. I am using whole shells though so maybe not the same as crushed shells which I imagine have a lot more surface area.

Sugar wash is the only ferment I do that requires close watch on the PH. Bourbon, single malts, ryes etc all just go with no adjustments. I don't even bother checking PH on my all grain ferments anymore.

StuNY wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:35 pm I put them in at the beginning, but notice that I still get a PH drop first day... correct it with calcium carbonate and then the shells take over after that. I am using whole shells though so maybe not the same as crushed shells which I imagine have a lot more surface area.

I use whole shells too. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't really need to adjust it. I leave them to it and seldom check the pH before the activity drops off.

NZChris wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:09 pm

StuNY wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:35 pm I put them in at the beginning, but notice that I still get a PH drop first day... correct it with calcium carbonate and then the shells take over after that. I am using whole shells though so maybe not the same as crushed shells which I imagine have a lot more surface area.

I use whole shells too. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't really need to adjust it. I leave them to it and seldom check the pH before the activity drops off.

Could be right, it may be me just watching too closely for the drop since I had it in past before I started adding the shells. Last run it went down to 3.8 so I added CC back up to 4.5 but maybe next time will just let it run it's course. 3.2 seems to be about the level where it stops and is difficult to restart. Thx.

StuNY wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:12 am Could be right, it may be me just watching too closely for the drop since I had it in past before I started adding the shells. Last run it went down to 3.8 so I added CC back up to 4.5 but maybe next time will just let it run it's course. 3.2 seems to be about the level where it stops and is difficult to restart.

You don't mention at what point after pitching you encounter the Ph of 3.8 with using shells.. but that not a low Ph.. a low Ph is when the wash goes to a Ph of 2.6 - 2.5.. anything above a Ph of 3.2 will be taken care by the shells.. baker's yeast will still ferment at that level of Ph, it's when it crosses the Ph 3 that it slow down..

Ph of a sugar wash will crash within the first 4 - 5 hrs, and after that will start to stabilize if you have shells or make an adjustment with calcium carbonate..

Mars

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:07 am I use a wine nutrient very similar to that when making shadys sugar shine.......same deal cant get straight DAP.
I see no reason why it wont work in Winos wash.

Heya Bill I'd like to ask... Shady's Sugar Shine recipe calls for 3 tbs of DAP - do you use 3tbs of the wine nutrient, or do you use more, since it isn't straight DAP? How much nutrient do you use? Cheers!

Ingredients of the Wine Nutrient I have:

Diammonium phosphate
Magnesium sulphate
Magnesium carbonate
Vitamins
Trace minerals

I use it as asked for in Shadys......Ive not tried to use it in this recipe.

HDTV wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:49 pm Shady's Sugar Shine recipe calls for 3 tbs of DAP - do you use 3tbs of the wine nutrient,

Yeast nutrient and yeast energizer are not the same product..

What you have listed is not nutrient but yeast energizer.. yeast nutrient is plain DAP..

Mars

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:00 am I use it as asked for in Shadys......Ive not tried to use it in this recipe.

I haven't logged in here in a few days - thanks for that.

StillerBoy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:05 am

HDTV wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:49 pm Shady's Sugar Shine recipe calls for 3 tbs of DAP - do you use 3tbs of the wine nutrient,

Yeast nutrient and yeast energizer are not the same product..

What you have listed is not nutrient but yeast energizer.. yeast nutrient is plain DAP..

Mars

It's labeled Wine Nutrient. It's the closest I can find to DAP without paying far too much. I'm gonna try it with Wineo's recipe... unless you see a problem with any of the ingredients.

Use the wine nutrient , it will be just fine .

Yummyrum wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:14 pm Use the wine nutrient , it will be just fine .

Thanks for that. DAP is the first ingredient, and epsom salts the second. I don't know what calcium carbonate is or does, but the vitamins can't be bad, beyond being probably unneeded.

HDTV wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:58 pm

Yummyrum wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:14 pm Use the wine nutrient , it will be just fine .

Thanks for that. DAP is the first ingredient, and epsom salts the second. I don't know what calcium carbonate is or does, but the vitamins can't be bad, beyond being probably unneeded.

I suggest you do some research and find out what calcium carbonate does in it's various forms and how it can be used to your advantage, or misused to wreck a perfectly ok wash.

It’s hard to find the exact amounts of the various things in Wine Nutrient , but I’d be pretty sure that the amount of Calcium carbonate In a few teaspoons of Nutrient would not have any negative effects and surely cant do any more harm than the shells and other stuff folk suggest to add to washes to help buffer the fermentation .

I'm with you Yummy , Ive used a fair bit of this stuff in various washes and its worked perfectly ok for me.

I didn't expect a hyper-active airlock almost immediately - thanks Wineo! I didn't expect the pleasant bread smell either.

I finally found all of the ingredients. I used 1tsp of this Wine Nutrient, which contains DAP and epsom salts and some other stuff (ingredients below):
https://www.brewerscoop.co.nz/product/2088087

1 tsp Citric Acid
1 tsp Calcium Sulfate
150g (1 cup) Edmonds Active Yeast

It's gonna cool off again, so I hope it keeps going. It's hard to imagine, the way it's rolling now.

Ingredients of the Wine Nutrient I used:

Diammonium phosphate
Magnesium sulphate
Magnesium carbonate
Vitamins
Trace minerals

Thanks Wineo, Trying this next! Stay tuned!

This is a great recipe for neutral and like apple pie and things of that nature

This is my gin base

After two runs I believe I am experiencing PH crashes. I did intervene with the first one, and saw it through to SG .998 but it took 3 weeks! The current one is currently stuck @SG 1.020 (like the last one) and so I fixed the PH and readded nutrients to kick it a bit. We will see how it goes. Interested in the dicussion on PH Buffering..... THAT may be where I need to invest next.

Yeah ph is key on this wash it's a tricky bastard

Question (bordering on heresy?) I never had this problem with my turbo yeasts: Why is that?

Because of the nutrients hence turdbo