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Rad, can you say that a different way one more time please?

Books and charts
are just parts
of the entire theory.
The test, I say
is put it in play
and find the result quite clearly.

Braz wrote:Books and charts
are just parts
of the entire theory.
The test, I say
is put it in play
and find the result quite clearly.

U sippin again?

Matter of fact. Martini #4.

Actually it was supposed to follow OD's post, "I think it's time the Flat Earth society finally conceed that the Earth is Round. Books and charts are just theory, and practice beats theory hands down, congratulations in showing that 95ABV can be acheived."

Day late and a dollar short.
Swut cha git fer drankin nat likker

What the earth is round?

Well, I finally finished watching the "Larry-a-thon", took 2 packs of chips, a bucket of popcorn and a gallon of ujssm.

I gotta say, you were pretty down on yourself. I think you did well grasshopper!

Not only does your still push the laws of distilling, it also defies the laws of gravity.

I like the idea of the thumper under the column, but I will admit I'm still getting my head around how its working in regard to stacking the plates, etc.
That gallon of sour mash isn't helping.

I'm looking forward to the next series...sequal, perhaps.

emptyglass wrote:I gotta say, you were pretty down on yourself. I think you did well grasshopper!

Thanks dude. the 95% thing is doable and has been done....and more and more people running these types of rigs are finding that out.

Previously, there were any number of discussions (public and private) where I stated very confidently that 95% would be easily achieved (with 4 plates), and was as giddy as a school boy on Christmas morn to prove it. There were also statements made by others who where quite confident that I was full of shit and that what I was saying was completely impossible and contradictory to well known texts on the subject matter.
Naturally I was confused why the "smartest" folks could not easily see what I was doing!....It is dead simple and does not contradict any natural laws or rules of distilling what so ever,,in the least,,,,,what so ever,,,,at all,,,,ever....Gravity is not defied at all.Gravity is used to drain high proof liquid down ward to fortify ABV levels on the next lowest plate.
So eventually I resigned myself to the fact that I just did not do a good job of explaining,,,,even though I felt like I was splaining my ass off.
So for this reason I wanted to hit a home run and drive 95 from start to finish just to make a very clear statement to the nay sayers.

My cooling lines have since been replaced. But at this point it seems less important as more and more operators are able to prove the techniques and numbers to themselves and taste the product rather than listen to the experts that have never even stilled with this type of stilling strategy and still.

emptyglass wrote:I like the idea of the thumper under the column, but I will admit I'm still getting my head around how its working in regard to stacking the plates,

The concept is dead simple. The thumper is just an over sized plate that prevents any alcohol from draining back into the boiler. All previously distilled alcohol stays in the rectifying section thanks to the deeflegohmygater (prior to collecting a single drop). And the plates need to have enough volume capacity to hold the entire amount of available alcohol. On my system anyway.
Once the top plate has filled to capacity, it will begin to drain downward as there is no other place for the liquid to go. Each plate will fill to capacity and then drain downward. The dynamic boost in ABV occurs when all of the smaller plates are loaded.
When this occurs the middle plates become essential work horses as the high proof liquid from above drains down and high proof vapor rises from below...This condition allows for any water within the system to be displaced downward as the most volatile material will populate and occupy the highest plates on the system.
By allowing the system to cycle, the ABV at the top plates will closely match in volatility. The closer you can get to matching abv at each plate level, the larger buffer zone you can achieve and therefore collect very rapidly with a very good degree of stability.

And the other less glamorous job of the thumper is to be the repository for any water cycling downward and also not allow this amount of water back into the primary to further dilute an already comparatively low ABV content within the boiler. (not to mention this would mean surrendering your alcohol too)
The good news here is that at any given point during the run,,,the thumper will always have a much higher ABV content than the primary. So even though water held within the system is the proverbial "monkey on the back",,,,, it is still very minimal compared to the bulk volume within the primary.

Hope I said that clearly...

Good explanation Larry.

Thanks dude.
And by the way. The essence of this still's performance is no different than any other distiller.
Its just that the design allows for a larger volume of distillate to be used to further distort/exploit the efficient affect that high proof alcohol has as a packing medium.

Not to worry. One's SSP can be used to fill a jar and hold down some papers or sumpin

So with the thumper, you're practicly cooking all the goodness out of the primary boiler and charging the "system"...
Then on full reflux, your then pulling more water out, returning the water to the thumper not the primary...adding goodness to the goodness....

Soooo... with a 50 litre, 10% charge, one would need to be able to hold 5ish litres in the "system", something a plated column can't do.
Ah ha! now I see.
Enter the thumper.

So the thumper allows you to hold the goodness in the system for furthur refienment, by the plates, to a level of your choice.

Starting to see how you are managing to do a stripping run and a spirit run in one. It seems to me that thats what you have managed to pull off.

How'd I go, Teach?

"Starting to see how you are managing to do a stripping run and a spirit run in one."

Kinda like a pot still followed by a reflux still; without having to condense the vapour (as you normally would as the final process in the pot still) and then re-heat (re-vapourise) the resulting liquid as you would do with a spirit run through a reflux still.

Have I got it right?
An improvement in efficiency of.....anyway a hell of a lot, in terms of energy, time, and money.
Sounds good, LWTC.

By "goodness" you mean the alcohol I assume?

It sounds like you've got it.

emptyglass wrote:Soooo... with a 50 litre, 10% charge, one would need to be able to hold 5ish litres in the "system", something a plated column can't do.
Ah ha! now I see.
Enter the thumper.

Comparable sized packed column can't do that either....Why should that matter says you???? Take off speed!

50 liters would be a bit much for my set up as my boiler is 50,,,but yes that is the idea.....The more the system cycles the cleaner the likker gets at the top of the apparatus..
And by using as much alcohol as possible to help with the distillation,,,,you only need as much heat at each plate that it takes to evaporate the ABV liquid contained on the plate,,,as we know that the ABV dictates the temps....So once the system is optimally equalized it doesn't take a whole lot of power to draw product off. And with a superior bubble cap design (good mingling),,,creating more surface area with the larger liquid volumes of high proof makes for pretty good packing material.

The draw back is that to optimally run the system you have to pull product before the big thumper starts draining back to the primary boiler....If this happens the process will start to reverse it's self and start to re-dilute,,,,,further dilute,,,,,introduce more water into the system...I'm am not sure how much this will affect the overall stability of the ABV being collected as there would be quite a large buffer zone of alcohol at the top of the apparatus at this point. But running the system as optimally as possible certainly is the goal....Site glass on the big thumper would be a nice confidence builder!


Edit:
You've got it The Baker!

LWTC,

I am trying to read & understand. Think I know what your are doing with this set up. Could the drawback you describe towards the end of the run not be countered by measuring and maintaining a temperature under your dephlag of 78.5 degrees C? That's what happens in a Flute and helps compress any higher alcs (let alone water) coming over. Makes it stop pretty much automatically, as I understand it.

But maybe I do not get what you are doing, yet.

Odin.

Hi Odin,

Strategically placing a set of thermometers will absolutely give a clear picture of when the most optimal time to begin collecting would occur...

The thing about this batch system compared to any other type of forced reflux system is that One can not simply employ 100% reflux indefinitely. The water will eventually catch up and disrupt the most optimal time to collect.

Equilibrium will remain constant on any other comparably sized forced reflux system as long as the input values remain constant (prior to collecting). But on this still there is a window of opportunity to optimally collect. And then when the large thumper starts to drain back to the primary.....a new, less effective equilibrium will become established....So we are creating a window of opportunity to CHEAT a more conventional equilibrium that gets established based on a,,,,say 10% boiler charge.

The thing is that this type of,,,er,,,,,,,spent water/wash management,,,,,system,,, allows the unit to run/reflux more efficiently the longer that it runs/refluxes,,,as long as you can manage the spent water.The further down on the plates you can get the abv to match the upper plate abv then the faster you can collect.

But at some point this type/scale of system will have diminishing returns. In my case,, a 40 liter charge will allow the system to run increasingly better,,,deeper into the run than a 20 liter charge....But at some point I would loose my capacity to manage the displaced waste/wash water. At that point the system returns to being just a couple of thumpers.

The system is sorta like a continuous still that does not have the ability to manage all the waste water.....And of course the continuous set up is not optimal for making cuts at the hobby level

Great feed back. I wil l have to give it some time to digest ...

Odin.

I think about that all the time Rock....My new boiler build is an effort to find a solution to that issue....
But be mindful when considering this problem.....The optimal time to collect is well within a reasonable amount of time to collect all usable product at a pot still speed....So the" problem" is not really a problem as such. The real problem is that we want to do it cuz we think we can

One more "regular" plate added to the column section would likely ease the burden of volume needed at the thumper.
A member at AD has added some volume at the base of his column section of 6 plates (for a total of 7 plates) and has so far found an improvement in stability over previous runs. But at some point adding more plates gets you,,,,,,,,,more plates..

The intended use for my still originally was to run at a much lower RR and protect the flavor. And thats why the 4 plater is interesting because you can get a dern respectable neutral and some well infused tasty likker too. Adding more plates sort of diminishes the flexibility of the rig......cept fer the speed part Man I'd shoot my self in the head if I had to strip AND then do a 12 hour spirit run

My new "Nuetral Boiler" build will have 2 fully integrated thumpers that are stepped in size to allow for an even longer reflux period.....and acourse that adds two more plates to the mix. But beyond that I have not been able figger a good way to put a rock solid barrier between the alcohol and the water during a run.

I have a butt load of weight hanging off of my rig.....When my graham is full of water it is just flat out heavy.....So far no weight related failures.....(knock on wood).
Do get some wobble from the keg top though.

Dude the pooter pics ain't much better'n the phone sized either.

Is the bottom pic the thumper?

OIC.

Do you have any pics of your stand pipe yet?

I like what I see so far Rock.

Stand pipe- the inlet/supply feed tube into the thumper

Hypothetical question:

If you charged your boiler with 85% (# achieved with thumper alone) "high wines" and ran a 4 plate flute would you expect the same results? (nobody should EVER do this)
also

Has anyone tried this with a flute yet? Im interested to see how important plate collection sizes are. Also interested in bottlenecks to increase vapor speed.

Really cool design LWTCS.. Daps.

I don't think anyone here has charged their primary with 85%. But it stands to reason that the more water left off of any particular plate (including the primary) the more efficient the system will evaporate the alcohol.
I believe it was Harry that posted an explanation regarding why diluting your charge makes better likker however.

left pic was the original inline configuration (hope I got it right.. just assume the innerworkings are there). My intent was to save height with an offset thumper but still have the ability to return reflux. I'd like to see what two thumpers can do as well. This is a ways down the road for me but I'm in the planning stages.

Thoughts?

Would the liquid lock not have enough overhead pressure to perform properly?

astronomical wrote:Would the liquid lock not have enough overhead pressure to perform properly?

I think its fine, but a bit more depth/ liquid volume in your traps for good measure couldn't hurt.

astronomical wrote: I'd like to see what two thumpers can do as well.

Well that orientation will distill , but liquid volumes and RR will dictate much of the outcome I. And this traditional orientation will likely manage parasitic heat a little differently too.

Your drawing is incomplete..What are your goals with this?

Im going to throw a 6 plate sieve column on top of it. I'm working on my plate tree and collecting parts. I was just looking to replicate what you've achieved. I like the thumper idea a lot. I just looked over your new thread and I hope its done by the time I'm ready to proceed. That new design looks awesome.

LW,

I saw your video's on Youtube first, but just now finished reading this whole post. I just found it. There is so much information and it takes time to figure out how to find it. I spent hours finishing reading everything on your system today. Thanks for all the information and the videos. I am going to read it again and then start asking some questions. Thanks for all the information.

Wow what an eye full, MY brain hurts now.