I vote to "out" copper from the homedistillation process!

[DAD300]

To all...the last thing we want is another locked thread...this is a discussion about a studied and scientifically written about subject. No one is finding the definitive statements we want to come to a conclusion we all accept, because we "interpret" the findings as we see fit.

It is a choice. I drive fast, drink and smoke cigars...but I do it knowingly that it is or may be harmful. Other countries, even some we consider "Third World" have been testing for and setting max levels of EC's for years. Read the material and do as you please, but we need to make sure every new member knows there is such a discussion.

I read to many posts urging new people to build a copper boka and a copper liebig, with no reference to the issues we're discussing here.

Locking these threads effectively takes them off the board.

Even some people in this very discussion have built 100% copper and then said "Oh shit!" Please don't be so arrogant as to believe "they" are all interpreting the data wrong.

To all the newbies...you have choices to make. Some of us interpret the data to say Copper in the Descending Vapor or Liquid path causes or promotes the formation of known carcinogens.

Copper is also, not always cheaper than Stainless. And I swear I can put a SS Product Condenser together easier, quicker and cheaper than a copper one.

[corene1]

I am just curious with the talk of acids and stainless corrosion . What grade of stainless were these findings based on. 304, 308, 310 ,316 , There are so many types of stainless out there. Typical food grade is 304 while some manufacturing plants spec out 316 for increased corrosion protection. The work we do for a baking firm is 304 while the work we do for in the carrot processing facility is 316. Believe it or not carrot juice is mean stuff on stainless.

[Odin]

It's a choice. It's what you want your stuff to taste like, it's your choice to choose Reduced EC formation over Reduced sulphates, (which really seems to be the only real argument the pro stainless crowd is using)

That is not a choice that you have to make. Choosing entirely one or the other is not the only option. It is strongly recommended, any time stainless is talked about, to have at least *some* copper in the ascending path. It would be a bad idea to *not* include any. You are making an empty argument, those are not the only choices. You can have both of those things, the most desirable aspects of both materials, extremely easily.

Now, here's a point. It's not completely black or white, SS or copper. Can there be an "and ... and ..." solution? Yes, for sure there can be. Copper for sure plays a role in treating (excessive) sulfur build up in the ferment, and so by definition is a cure for a bad ferment. Now let's say we need that cure, does that mean copper cannot play a role? Yes it can. But, please, do not make the whole still out of copper. Especially in a homedistiller situation, where stills are sometimes not used for weeks (yet almost never caustically or citric accidally cleaned afterwards). If you use it, in the upward vapour path. And as close to the boiler as possible. Use a catalyst, so there's lots of copper (scrubbers from copper, copper mesh, copper spp) and insert them in such a way that you can easily take them out after a distillation run. Then put the copper under 45% alcohol. Why? To prevent rust corrosion, that leads to copper flakes formation and create copper particle contamination in your drink.

Regards, Odin.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

I am just curious with the talk of acids and stainless corrosion . What grade of stainless were these findings based on. 304, 308, 310 ,316 , There are so many types of stainless out there. Typical food grade is 304 while some manufacturing plants spec out 316 for increased corrosion protection. The work we do for a baking firm is 304 while the work we do for in the carrot processing facility is 316. Believe it or not carrot juice is mean stuff on stainless.

These findings were based on 304 stainless steel. And I'm sure even you would, have to admit that 304 is cheaper tha 316, I've seen it, anyone who's worked with stainless knows it.

In our hobby people tend to go for the cheapest option which would be 304.




Again, I don't give a shit, use what you want, but be informed.

On a side note, I'm working on the process to open a craft distillery, and while I run all copper at home, am considering an Odin made stainless rig for my possible craft distillery.

[res]

Very interesting thread, my thanks to all the contributors.

Then put the copper under 45% alcohol. Why? To prevent rust corrosion, that leads to copper flakes formation and create copper particle contamination in your drink.

Regards, Odin.

Seems easy enough, for my still at least, and unless there is any reason not to store my equipment this way it seems like a easy precaution. Is 45% the minimum, would a higher percentage be preferable?
Heads and tails good enough for this purpose?
Cheers

[Odin]

Heads and tails are great, 45 to 50% is fine.

Regards, Odin.

[carbohydratesn]

I read to many posts urging new people to build a copper boka and a copper liebig, with no reference to the issues we're discussing here.

Locking these threads effectively takes them off the board.

This is exactly it. Nobody is shoving anything down anyone's throat.

This stuff just needs to be part of the discussion, so that people can actually make a choice.

[thecroweater]

To make a reference to a discussion like this would infer one one posting thinks the subject is a valid issue and most don't me included. That is unless you are using a fully inert still and then I do think you have some issues (that can be fixed with copper)

[Odin]

Building a Boka out of copper is one of the strangest things one can do. Usually a Boka is there to make vodka or neutral. Well, if there's one drink that doesn't need copper, it is vodka or neutral!

Now, let's dive a bit deeper into a copper Boka. Boka's are relatively narrow 2 inch, maybe 3 inch. And they are build for performance and plates (okay, HETP). You want to hit 96%, right? So ... why introduce a material that corodes, and hampers and increases something as critical to hitting that 96% as ... vapour speed? Now, let's put in copper packing and the surface area inside the still explodes. Or starts growing exponentially within something like 36 hours or sooner with air contact (try a rum and you will see discoloration within minutes rather than hours, indicating rust formation has started).

So you are building a modern style rig for 96%. That 96% is very much dependent on vapour speed - and its correlation to reflux, and the packing's capability of liquid retention - and then we add materials that will hamper rizing gases, immediately start to retain more liquids, etc., increase vapour speeds, deminise the column's capability to drain spent reflux back into the boiler ...



Odin.

[Danespirit]

Now..what everyone seems to miss, is the obvious: Copper was invented before stainless steel.
It changed the way people would use tools and weapons. Now they could kill animals (and eachother) more effectivily..wow..great..hmmm..
So it's very logical, that copper first was in use for distillation, because it was available hundreds of years before stainless.
There were claims about Harry Brearley (which father happened to be a steel melter) , was the inventor of stainless.
It may or may not be the case. Anyway...Krupp (now Thyssen/Krupp) made stainless steel alloy in 1908.
From there until now, there was a constant development to improve the quality and properties of this steel.
I belive the our final product will benefit from some copper in the vaporpath, as it aids the breakdown of sulforic compounds in our wash.
Contamination by for example corrosion is only a problem for the lazy distiller, that won't maintain his equipment. A poorly designed still could also be part of the problem, allowing spots and corners that can't be properly cleaned and gunk can develop.
This problem of course can also occur in a stainless steel still, when it was thrown together , weldings smeared all over it and looking like the birds shit on it.
Glass and ceramics would be good alternatives for distilling equipment. Unfortunatly it would be highly unpractible to make a setup like in a laboratory, cost/ benefit would suffer too.
So..this leaves us with just two options for acceptable distilling equipment, traditional copper or stainless steel.
Edit: Posted same time as Odin..Yes Odin..i too see the unlogical in a copper Boka..might as well be stainless.

[aceswired]

Very interesting thread, my thanks to all the contributors.

Then put the copper under 45% alcohol. Why? To prevent rust corrosion, that leads to copper flakes formation and create copper particle contamination in your drink.

Regards, Odin.

Seems easy enough, for my still at least, and unless there is any reason not to store my equipment this way it seems like a easy precaution. Is 45% the minimum, would a higher percentage be preferable?
Heads and tails good enough for this purpose?
Cheers

So should I pour my fores into the worm and cap it between runs? Would be pretty easy really ...

[Odin]

Ik know people that put there copper columns in alcohol between runs. Or, if that's not possible, at least cap them, so no more oxygen can come in and there's only minor oxydation between runs.

Regards, Odin.

[coastershiner]

I think this is one of my favorite threads I have found so far!
The topic is so interesting very good info for people to think about.
the passion that has been displayed on this debate makes for a very entertaining read too!
This is a dumb question, but I gotta ask, what is "EC" ?

[shadylane]

I use what is available and practical.
The boiler is a SS keg and everything else is copper.
The copper condensers, column and riser are built in such a way that they can be easily cleaned.
I'm sure SS is better from a purity stand point, but copper is easier to work and conducts heat better.
The trace amounts of copper or other chemicals that are formed are probably less toxic than ethanol and charred oat.

[carbohydratesn]

This is a dumb question, but I gotta ask, what is "EC" ?

Ethyl Carbamate, also known as urethane.

[Paulinka]

optimal construction materials for brandy distillation

This table is the translation from the most recognized professional textbook in the field of pálinka-manufacturing (page 100.) http://www.palinkafozo100literes.hu/Dr. ... afozes.pdf

So, if I plan a new pot-still these days for whiskey or brandy/pálinka manufacturing, it's pot, dome, (attachable) dephlegmator and Lyne-arm is to be made from copper, while the worm is a very carefully leveled stainless steel.

For a vodka/gns (attachable) column, construction material would be all-stainless steel with copper-rings in a stuffed column, or copper bubblecaps and copperplates.

Now I have a SS pot with a SS lid, no dome, copper Lyne-arm and copper worm. Cheapest on the market, it was bought for about $200 USD. My new 25 gallon (98 L) potstill is in planning-phase right now.

Anyway, what I make with my cheapo' pot-still (it is most unsuitable by the above table) is pretty much drinkable, which leads me to the conclusion that there is a thin line between "perfect" and "bad" materials IF your mash/wash is ok AND you clean reasonably.

I use to clean my still's copper parts by pulling an textile wet with alcohol through them until it comes out clean but I never scrape. After gin/absinthe I fill the Lyne and worm with heated margarine (it pulls the oils inside it), then push it out with high-pressure water, and wipe it out with alcohol.
I have a few liters of sugarwash distilled to be a dedicated cleaning alcohol for this purpose, a few egg-whites are good to clean the cleaning alcohol, all metal-salts and oxides settle to the bottom of the jug, captured by the egg white.

[3d0g]

Surely with all the folks here, someone works (or knows someone works) in a lab that could do some EC testing. Worst case, a quick google found ETS Labs. For $150 they'll do an EC test on your spirit with a 2 day turnaround.

Very few countries actually have ethyl carbamate standards, but the few that do seem to hover around the 150µg/L for spirits and 400-800µg/L for fruit brandy.

[Paulinka]

Very few countries actually have ethyl carbamate standards

It is because maximum hydrogen cyanide content is already regulated, and EC is an oxydation product of HCN. Basically, it appears in the drink this way:
broken seeds of drupes release amygdalin, and by enzymatic reaction in the mash it is converted to hydrogen cyanide. HCN needs alcohol and heat to be oxidised to EC.

To gain low levels of HCN and (coming from that) low level of EC, one must not mash any unripe drupes, because of the higher risk of seeds breakage. Even when using ripe fruits with seeds, the amigdalin diffuses into the mash by the end of the fermentation, leading to the same problem.

Some pálinka's traditionally require to have a little core flavor (in my area cherry, but in some regions it is welcomed in apricot and plum too), these fruit-pulps should contain 3-6% unbroken seeds mixed in before start of the fermentation. HCN will be around 0-5mg/l (max. allowed by law is 70mg/l) in the brandy, and even after a long storage of HCN-containing brandies the EC-content will stay well below 1mg/l. Reducing the formation of EC is easy even if some HCN is already in the spirit: store the liquor away from sunlight in green/brown glass jugs at a cool place.

Should some technological fault happen, like too much cores end up in the mash, broken seeds etc., a huge copper surface can capture most of the HCN.
But, contrary to popular beliefs, an oversized copper actually takes away scent and taste from brandies by overcatalyzing. So, a multifinned copper catalysator (which can be a column of copper processor-heatdiffusers from a computer-store) can be useful if one's intention is to make a neutral brandy from faulty wine in a potstill.

Anyway, long story short, a controlled fermentation of ripe, carefully separated fruit is the basis to reduce HCN/EC and make an excellent pálinka/brandy.

I haven't got the faintest idea how HCN/EC comes in grain spirits, but would love to hear about it. AFAIK millet, buckwheat and barley are decent grain sources of B17 (which is amygdalin's other name). I made spirits from these three grains and those liquors have none of the recognizable almondy bitterness like my cherry-pálinka has (that made with 5% seeds on the same potstill), which leads me to believe that HCN/EC is way below 0.2-0.5mg/l in grain spirits that are known to have B17, and literally none that has no amygdalin to start of.

[Danespirit]

Ecellent information Paulinka...
Thank's for posting..
There is a whole scientific resume about ethyl carbamate and the risks here : http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2407/10/266#B29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Even if i points on spirits from Brasil (cachaça and tiquira), it is still valid for other spirits too.

[The Butchers Apron]

This is an interesting piece that is relevant to this debate.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0450.x/pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Jimbo]

Nice find, thanks for posting. All else being equal, Sulphery and Feinty for all stainless and Fruity for copper. Hmmm. Ill not be removing my copper plates, tower and leibig.

[The Butchers Apron]

I prefer actual scientific data to ones personal opinion. I'll take copper over stainless for drinkable spirits, but if making fuel the latter will suffice.

[Prospekt]

Starting to dive back into the forums as the spring starts to warm up. This thread popped up just as I was ramping down my browsing. Odin, thank you for bringing this to the table, as it really is something we all should be informed about. The truth is though, we're not getting anywhere with the discussion without any hard data. It really boils down to 2 issues:

1. Do copper stills produce elevated levels of copper or harmful copper salts?
- This is not a debate about whether or not its harmful, but whether or not they actually appear in the product, and what the compounds are. I don't understand why the argument is getting so heated. There's already lots of documentation about the dangers of each of these compounds, it's just a matter of proving that they're in home distillate.
- This is a debate that will ONLY be solved by hard data, not pages and pages of debate and speculation based on hunches and napkin calculations.

2. Do copper stills enhance the production of carcinogenic Ethyl Carbamate?
- Based on some of the published data shown in other threads, it appears that yes, copper + ethanol does catalyze the formation of EC.
- The data also shows that if the copper is on the lower parts of the still where reflux occurs, and not in the condenser, there's virtually no risk of EC ending up in the distillate. Especially if the distiller performs a stripping and spirit run. So if EC is what you're concerned about, you might consider converting anything after the lyne-arm to stainless. The study is one of only a few known, and if you think about how many studies are done on other potential hazards in consumed goods, it doesn't carry as much weight as you might think. Also, the fact that it is so poorly studied *might* also indicate that the issue isn't as much of a concern as we might be led to believe in these forums.

Ultimately, what it boils down to is simply, we need data. Without data, this shouldn't even really be an argument. Does anyone out there have the resources to generate any of this data?

[DAD300]

Prospekt...in my signature there is another post referencing 10-12 papers and articles written as late as last year. I would be happy to hear your evaluation.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=53217

My point in that post was meant to be copper in the ascending side of a still is good and on the descending side is bad.

[thecroweater]

Yep in this thread and about 4 or 5 others there are about a hundred or more links showing all sorts of conflicting findings. Maybe check the link to posts back for a very interesting read as is the link prior to that
I for one do not believe that experienced stillers shouldn't share their findings or opinions unless they can find yet another link to some supposed finding by some unknown with yet an unknown interest

[Jimbo]

Yes I'd like to see a thorough detailed report on this EC crap. Lots of fear mongering but best I can tell chelated copper 'may' catalyze cyanide. Well folks there's fuckall cyanide in whiskey and sugar heads. It comes from apple pips, and such. And there's fuckall cyanide in cider unless you fermented on the ground up pomace. Who the hell does that. Grappa maybe. And chelated copper, ... really?! My copper might be coated with grunge but scaling off copper slag. No dont think so. EC is carcinogenic. Any evidence of Scots dropping from cancer at an extraordinary rate. Fuck no.

[carbohydratesn]

Urea is also catalyzed into EC, Jimbo. There's plenty of urea in many washes. EC is present in whiskies, there are test results showing that.

[Jimbo]

Like crow said there's lots of conflicting data. This morning I read a published report that Urea is overstated in Whiskey discussions. Where does it come from in a grain mash aside from urea based yeast nutrients? I dunno, I'll keep reading but its getting long in the tooth.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Yes I'd like to see a thorough detailed report on this EC crap. Lots of fear mongering but best I can tell chelated copper 'may' catalyze cyanide. Well folks there's fuckall cyanide in whiskey and sugar heads. It comes from apple pips, and such. And there's fuckall cyanide in cider unless you fermented on the ground up pomace. Who the hell does that. Grappa maybe. And chelated copper, ... really?! My copper might be coated with grunge but scaling off copper slag. No dont think so. EC is carcinogenic. Any evidence of Scots dropping from cancer at an extraordinary rate. Fuck no.

Sugar cane is cyanidic.

EC also forms from urea in your mash, from stressed yeast or overuse of nitrogen/nitrogen forming nutrients (DAP)

There is a ton of info in the research and theory section that I pulled together from the various posts, and other online resources.

Ultimately, it's a minor threat (IMO) since :
1) EC Can be passed through your system in small amounts.
2) the amounts used in the studies to determine its carcinogenic effects in mice equate to multiple GRAMS, typically, spirits contain micro grams.
3) likely, as corene pointed out, the stills used in most of the studies relating to formation in alcohol, were heavily cleaned, or virgin copper to eliminate contaminants that would otherwise affect the outcome
4) the metabolism of ethanol in the human body results in acetyldehyde as the first metabolized substance, which is also a carcinogenic. (hello liver cancer!)
5) there are far worse things that can cause immediate problems that we should concern ourselves with aside from a chance of cancer caused from EC in our already cancer causing beverage. (If you've ever discovered your "buddy" had a little too much bad shit in his brew only because your liver temporarily said fuck you, and let you shit white (albino poopies as I described them) for a couple days, or gave you a small case of ketosis (caused from too much acetone in your system, either naturally formed, or ingested. mild cases make your pee smell a little sweet or fruity till you rid yourself of the excess, it's very noticeable, some diabetics can relate, bad cases can kill you.)) two separate "friends", two separate occasions.)


......why do I always drag myself into these conversations lol....

[Jimbo]

Alright, good points smurf. Ill keep reading